"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

This quotation from the 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus is the one that is causing all the fuss. It was included in a University lecture given by the current Pope Benedict XVI in Germany last Tuesday. Across the Islamic world, from Turkey, to Egypt to Pakistan it has caused offence. It is believed it could have been the cause of an apparently senseless murder of a 65 year old nun in Somalia.

Not surprisingly the new Pope has tried to damp down the row. He has issued two statements - the first was an apology for the upset his words has caused. The second yesterday did at least try to take back some of the sentiment stating: "These in fact were quotations from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought." It is perhaps unfortunate that this Pope (who was a member of the Hitler Youth during world War II) cited another text which descries the Crucifixion of Jesus as "a scandal for the Jews".

These are enormously sensitive waters to wade into - So what on earth is the Holy Father, who only took over his job last year after long service to the late John Paul II, up to? As it happens I spent the weekend in Italy at an Anglo-Italian political seminar which certainly threw up some food for thought.

The most important is that it is very difficult to dismiss his Holiness's inflammatory quotation as a mistake. It is true that it is made in the context of a complicated theological argument. However the Pope's main point was that the Christian faith is superior to Islam because it blends faith with the philosophical tradition of reason dating back to the Ancient Greeks. The purpose of the quotation was to illustrate that Holy War is against reason and therefore not part of the Christian tradition. (Of course this overlooks the many Holy Wars fought both against Unbelievers such as the Crusades and between Christian believers of different sects).

In his original text His Holiness does not in anyway disassociate himself from Paleologus, or qualify his remarks, so it is difficult to see how he can argue now that he was not expressing his personal thought. A man as erudite as the Pope could presumably have found a more anodyne quotation to back up his philosophical argument, but instead he chose one of the most provocative, referring to Holy War or 'Jihad', as some Moslems interpret the word.

Even Roman Catholic theologians believe the Pope has made a mistake. In exoneration they point out that the Political organisation of the Vatican is now in turmoil with vacancies for the posts of Secretary of State (Prime Minister), Foreign secretary and Press Spokesman. His Holiness' remarks did not go through the normal checking process. On the other hand in his previous post Cardinal Ratzinger was the last Pope's trouble shooter.

There are some who believe that the Pope meant precisely what he said - wishing to offer some red-blooded comparisons between religions. So far this Pope, a German by birth, has shown himself to be very European in focus. In Europe the Catholic church is in trouble with a declining congregation as secularisation advances. By contrast Islam is proving to have a strong appeal to a minority of young people, precisely because it seems to embody the religious version of "conviction politics". According to this argument the Pope is setting out to remind everyone not only that Christianity has convictions but that those convictions are more humane and less aggressive than Islam's.

Of course, all this is a caricature. In all cultures there is in interplay between religious teaching and the extent to which they influence everyday life and argument. It is absolutely certain that if anything the Pope wanted to stir up discussion not to ferment violence as some contemporary Moslem Clerics clearly intend. What do you think?

Comments

[Saint Louis 13 Oct 2006 00:10:33]

Three phrases should be among the most common in our daily usage. They are: Thank you, I am grateful and I appreciate.

[Kelly J. 26 Sep 2006 22:19:26]

Rob - look in the mirror and you'll see one of the soldiers of the invading army. How does it feel? There was peaceful co-existence in this country until the likes of you came with your foreign ways preaching your obscure religion/cult. I'd give anything to have our brave British soldiers come home from Iraq, leave the natives to deal with each other and for people like you who know nothing except hatred and division to get back to your natural homeland.

[Lee Southend 26 Sep 2006 19:33:38]

Shan, way to put words in my mouth so if im against Islamics murdering children in a school in Beslan then I must be in favor of murdering people in Chechnya.
Spanish Inquisition, As if 10s of millions were killed you need to stop reading that Taqiyya and get some real history m8.
If information is correct what does it matter where it comes from. You dont dispute my info but just bemoan the fact that I get it from people you dont like, at least I give my sorces whereas you expect us all to just take your word for it.
You still havent managed to put my quotes from the Koran into nonviolent context and you still try your damndest to find moral equivalence where there is none. The correct answer to my comment on Beslan is that there is no justification for this outrage but that one just slipped you by.
The Islamics are the ones spewing propaganda its about time people in the west stopped believing it.

[k 26 Sep 2006 18:30:52]

Rob I have some one I am very close to and have spoke to many people who have come back from there. You need a seriouse reality check. None of what you said is happening there in Iraq. Yes some idiot went in killed a family and raped and killed the girl. Our men, US and British because I hold dual citizenship so have an alegience to both. Are not murderers. They are good men and women. Mothers, daughters, aunts, sisters, fathers, sons, husbands, uncles and brothers. All doing what the likes of you will never do. Risk their lives for the call of their country. They are shot at every day. Their families sit home waiting and prayng for their safe return because they know the truth and none of which is what you preach. When you get back from one of the coutries you speek of let me know if you still feel the same after you have seen the muslims there killing and torturing each other. You sit there giving out propaganda about what you do not know. Hezbolah have been out there doing what they do since the late seventies. Instead of preaching hate towards our men and woman mostly I think it is US people you hate try to imagine how you would feel if you had family there and we said it about them. You only see what you want to see.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 18:20:40]

For those Muslims who like propaganda:-
http://islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/IncessantTerrorism.htm

This one for John, Ireland:-
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/09/why-we-cannot-rely-on-moderate-muslims.html

This should produce more Muslim youngsters:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=407055&in_page_id=1770
Not to mention child benefits.

[m.n 26 Sep 2006 18:10:34]

Can someone also answer me this? Everybody is currently fearing that Islam is going to take over the world and we'll all be converted. Can i just ask, how are they going to do that?? I for one will be dead and buried before I will ever indulge myself in this ridiculous religion alongside these fanatics.

Posted by: John,Ireland 26 Sep 2006 13:06:58
----------------------

POLITICS, COUNCILLORS, MP'S, LORDS
councils committee forums etc.

subtly & slowly.

its already started
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133942&command=displayContent&sourceNode=201398&home=yes&more_nodeId1=133951&contentPK=15483807
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2372471,00.html

& THEY ARE PUSHING FOR SHARIA FAMILY LAW.

check out
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
http://jihadwatch.org/

"Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, is part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race."

apologise if this posts twice.

[M Heywood 26 Sep 2006 16:43:28]

Riz I went to your thread,jesusthemuslim and read a convert's personal testimony although I could find no reason for her conclusion that Jesus was a Moslem. Please return the favour by logging onto Americancongressfortruth.com, which is a personal testimony of Brigitte Gabriel's experience as a Lebanese Christian woman. You will be able to see videos of Hizbollah training camps for children, read her book Because They Hate and many other first hand experiences.

[Eddie. Lacashire 26 Sep 2006 16:15:20]

I do not dislike anyone due to their race but what I will not accept is someone trying to force their religion beliefs and way of life onto me and my family.
The Muslim community is causing problems albeit they are moderate or extremist, because of Islam they will never accept some British laws, they want Islam law when it suits them and “use” British law when it benefits them. The latest is the anti smoking due in England next April, they want exempt from this law allowing them to smoke the Shish in public places as this is part of their culture. Freedom in Britain.. you must be joking, they are free to say and demand what they want. We are not as it might offend them.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 16:13:26]

Blair has a tooth missing -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5380054.stm

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 16:07:39]

John, Ireland
This might give you a clue:-
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1183

You're right, it won't happen in our lifetime, but in your grand or great grand kids lifetime it will, unless we prevent it NOW!
We are at a crossroads in Britain, (maybe not Ireland - yet) dithering only helps those who want and are working towards an Islamic Republic.
We can at no time say 'we weren't warned' or 'we didn't realise what was going on at the start of the century' etc. It won't wash.

[ROB--Birmingham 26 Sep 2006 15:49:50]

To maurice it is good to see old fashioned propaganda being portrayed as the gods own word, your assertions that they hide behind women and children shows either your deliberate ignorance of the facts or hatred of muslims,everytime i saw sky reporters showing missiles streaking accros the sky from hezbollah fighters they were from outside of towns and villages and i believe what i saw on sky news then what someone says.

i saw the burnt out vehciles that were bombed by israeli planes killing fleeing women and children and i saw the bombed out bridges-roads-schools-petrol stations-factories-water plants-power houses, i suppose you will inform us that israelis hate to kill people and they are heavenly people, you may have chosen to forget the sky news report where israeli children were writing messages of death for people of lebanon on bombs.

you may have also conveniently forgotton the jewish rabbis blessing bombs that were killing and maiming innocents be they women-men or children, every one with journalistic integrety knows that the beslan tragedy happened because putin ordered his soldeirs to attack the school instead of negotiate, the majority of the peopel were killed in the ensuing violence in the botched operation, why do you apparently not see the forty thousand dead chechhen children who have been raped and torturtred to death simply because they are chechens, is it because it does fit in with your villification agenda agaisnt muslims.

i cannot see any muslims armies invading and occupying britain or america but i can certianley see christian armies invading and occupying iraq and afghanistan, were the iraqis are raped-sodmised and torutured to death in hidden centres all over iraq,the muslism world would prefer a wall to stop cut throat theives attacking and robbing their resoucres which has been done by variuos christian nations in the last 150 years.

the world is wise to propaganda and you should look at the reality instead of quoting anti-muslim sites, for every one knows when some one converts to another religion he feels his previuos religion was bad there is nothing new in this.

rhetoric is one thing but historical information base on reality is another thing which should be kept in mind when commenting.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 15:08:36]

One more wondering when Muslims will apologise for part of their history:-
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=7288

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 14:53:18]

A constant flow of News of, guess what:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/09/26/do2602.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/09/26/ixopinion.html

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 14:34:27]

Who mentioned Spain?
http://clarityandresolve.com/archives/2006/09/while_were_hand.php
And how Peace Islam Style is presented:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2374550-3,00.html

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 13:17:41]

Very nice RIZ - but it only goes to prove that Muslims and converts need a crutch to give them justification and a feeling of belonging to something, instead of producing something worthwhile themselves.
You might like to look at:-
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=112402

The Brave warriors do as they do, hide behind babies and women. Then launch rockets into civillian area's.
Even the Girls of Israel as they do in other Western countries, wear uniforms.

[John,Ireland 26 Sep 2006 13:06:58]

Riz, I am not a christian in any way but what I have read of Jesus is that he preached love and understanding among his people and that is what his followers preach in his name. What did your prophet preach? Violence, hatred and ignorance of everybody and every culture outside of Islam. Not to mention that he was also a paedophile! Islam is a corrupt and morally bankrupt religion that has no place in modern society.

Can someone also answer me this? Everybody is currently fearing that Islam is going to take over the world and we'll all be converted. Can i just ask, how are they going to do that?? I for one will be dead and buried before I will ever indulge myself in this ridiculous religion alongside these fanatics.

[James 26 Sep 2006 12:18:35]

Riz. You are quoting from the wrong book. The Qran is your textbook, taking the peaceful extracts from both the Old and New Testaments that Christians and Jews do, but with the addition of the "terrorism" clauses that turn your bible into the qran. Your allah didn't exist until your prophet came along. The God of Christians and Jews does not require them to submit the free will he gave them. He does not welcome murderers (check out the 10 Commandments), nor would he offer virgins as a reward to murderers. Jews and Christians break their bond with God when committing acts that are against His will and His Commandments. Moslems draw closer to their allah when doing the same. That is the difference and it is not subtle, it is the extremely wide gulf that exists between islam and the rest of the world's beliefs. The Hindhu and Buddhism religions are completely different to both Christianity and Judaism, but no one has a problem with accommodating everyone else's diverse views and beliefs except moslems who, quite incorrectly and violently, take it upon themselves in their billions to vilify and nullify everyone else. Show me a photo of mohammed sitting alongside allah, the happy "martyrs" with their virgins (that were) and someone might be convinced of your argument. Until then, do what the rest of the world does and co-exist with everyone else. History has taught everyone else that that is the only way. Moslems have a lot of catching up to do and until then it is the duty of everyone else to keep them in their place and try their utmost to limit the damage moslems would like to inflict on everyone.

[Riz London 26 Sep 2006 11:52:12]

http://www.jesusthemuslim.com/

Please visit above website

Many Thanks.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 26 Sep 2006 11:21:55]

"After reading these passages from the Bible you have to question yourself what message did Jesus ( pbuh ) come & preach!

Posted by: Riz London 26 Sep 2006 10:51:48"

And thereby hangs you and yours problems.

The Bible has always been questioned, whereas you are not able to question the Koran as it is apparently the most perfect book and cannot be bettered, nor questioned.
Hence it's contents are still enacted upon today by the Ummah, the Christians etc. have no such thing as a global Christian Ummah to contend with.
I have no problem with Islam being your (the Ummah) problem, but I object to it being made to be a problem for the rest of us.
The world needs an ideological curtain as the Iron and the Bamboo versions for the same reason - Incompatibility.
ALL Muslims on one side the rest on the other.

[Riz London 26 Sep 2006 10:51:48]

More evidence from the Bible & Quran to answer the question was Jesus a Muslim prophet or not!

"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God." (Mark 10:18)

Did he somehow forget that he himself was God when he said this?

"They were all filled with awe and praised God, "A great Prophet has appeared among us," they said. "God has come to help his people." This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea and the surrounding country."
Luke 7:16-7
..."Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me"...
Quran 61:6
..."I have not come on my own; but he (God) sent me."
John 8:42
"O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word"...
Quran 4:171
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."
John 8:38
"...This command I (Jesus) received from my Father."
John 10:18
"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He (Jesus) will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them anything except what You commanded me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; And I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things."
Quran 5:116-7
"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."
John 13:16
"He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He has given me Revelation and made me a prophet"...
Quran 19:30
..."Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed."
Luke 5:16
...he (Jesus) fell with his face to the ground and prayed...
Matthew 26:39
"Christ does not disdain to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, - He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)."
Quran 4:172
..."for the Father is greater than I."
John 14:28
..."You are the Exalted in power, the Wise."
Quran 5:118
"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only"...
John 1:18
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."
Quran 6:103
Jesus ( pbuh ) Describing God!

..."You have never heard his voice nor seen his form"...
John 5:37
..."there is nothing whatever like unto Him"...
Quran 42:11
After reading these passages from the Bible you have to question yourself what message did Jesus ( pbuh ) come & preach!

[Marlene, Pendle 26 Sep 2006 09:46:22]

"please at least do check the veracity of your comments and not indulge in propaganda."
Posted by: ROB--Birmingham 25 Sep 2006 17:38:12

Rob, I advise you to read this link:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jackstraw1.html

You see, it is not 'propaganda'.

[the white dragon 26 Sep 2006 06:32:07]

i am absolutely appalled that the Holy See feels the need to keep on making veiled apologies to the islamic community - this smacks of weakness and lily livered appeasement ala Neville Chamberlain !! does he not realise that the moslems only respect strength and force ? what next all the white heterosexual christians,Roman Catholics et al in the world making written grovelling apologies to the moslems. ?
the pope has said nothing wrong - he only spoke the truth, albeit a 14th century slant on the modern days woes, but none the less the truth on the true nature of islam.

i for one do not wish my family,friends and loved ones to be subjected to a future moslem hell on earth because that is where we are heading !! therefore i will fight against it to my dying breath.

the only person who i have seen subscribe any true warnings on the danger of islam is Maurice (Northumberland) i recommend to all law abiding, decent, white, christian, western peoples of intelligence to read his links as it is indeed chilling food for thought. the game is up for us all sooner than you think.

as for rob (birmingham)- how do you get to sleep at night suckering up to the islamic extremists or are you a convert ? if you are not - no amount of toadying will save you.

NB: i dont know why i waste my time submitting posts because they never get published.....who says the truth hurts ?

[Kelly Cohen O'Shea 26 Sep 2006 06:23:18]

Oh my Lord. Riz, you are the product of illiterate and uneducated parents taking you to your mosque where an illiterate and uneducated person professes to "teach"you your religion. The word "lord" to which you allude is the "lord, ladies and gentleman" variety. Were you to have been taught the Old Testament and New Testament by an educated person in order to open your mind instead of the people in your life who defile everyone else's religions, you wouldn't have exposed yourself as the illiterate example of Islam that you are. At the time of the Bibles, the 2 true Books of Faith, English wasn't around in that area. Therefore, the words you quote were not used. Jesus Christ's followers are called Christians, Jesus himself having been born a Jew. Your absurd notes about Abraham not being a Jew, Iraq and arabs, Hebrews and all the other claptrap you have had passed down to you is the proof that islam is a cult of the uneducated masses. At the very least, when coming to a civilized country, you could have availed yourself of public libraries to read, learn and digest the true meanings of the Holy Bibles,Old and New, the Jewish Tanach always having commentaries by learned sages to explain their own interpretations of the sacred Book. Other religions argue by reason, moslems just argue.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 25 Sep 2006 20:04:03]

If you have had time to access the Apostate web site, and before you comment about it being propaganda - read this:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html
Relevant quotes to cover above:-
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4512
Qur’an 4:115 “If anyone contradicts or opposes the Messenger [not Allah] after guidance has been conveyed to him, and follows a path other than the way, We shall burn him in Hell!”

Then, more propoganda:-
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/article.aspx?g=41111&i=4111102

All propaganda then?

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 25 Sep 2006 19:38:14]

A site produced by Ex-Muslims
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
So what do Muslims think about it, is it propaganda?
It puts us all between a rock and a hard place, we can't believe Muslims due the opt out available 'Al Takyya', on top of the global proof they simply can't be trusted. So do we believe those who have had the brains to leave Islam and get a life of their own?

[k 25 Sep 2006 19:25:40]

Rob, My children are Americans. So in your generalisation they are killing Iraqi's. Even though they are just children. The people in Iraq that are killing are fellow Iraqi's and in some cases from surrounding countries not Americans. Also by your exceptance of the way Sadam Hussein took care of the people who wanted him out by slaughtering them is quit disturbing. Can you imagine how that would go down since lots of people want Tony Blair out, and he turned around and had A whole town wiped out. Here is the News cast for that. On headline news today. Many people in Luton decided to over throw The Primeminister today so the town was all killed and buried in a big pit. Yea, Ok.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 25 Sep 2006 18:33:08]

The only people producing propaganda are in reality Muslims and their apologists!
Is this Propaganda:-
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article17798
It maybe anti-Islamic, why? Because no one wants it!
Are the contents of:-
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Propaganda or Anti-Islamic, or is it the truth, the truth we the infidel are not to know of?
Well tough, we have been told many times to look into it - many of have, and don't like anything about it!
As for Beslan - yep these tough warriors of Islams brothers and sisters specifically targeted a School - and what pray is in schools?
Just as they target trains, planes, buses, bars, cafes etc.
Sorry to you folks of the so-called religion of Islam, but a Religion it is not, it has more in common with Fascism and Communism
purely an ideology that you feel that we would all benefit from adhering to, well we don't want it! The Koran = Mien Kampf.
Is this the lifestyle the modern day Muslim wants us to adopt:-
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=3
The lifestyle that many Iranians run away from, and Muslims in general form the largest of those who migrate.
Why is it the largest growing 'religion' in the West you ask.
Let me give you a couple of clues.
1 - Migration
2 - Breeding habits, whilst Muslims give birth to Muslims in great numbers, the rest of us give birth to people and numbers we can afford and our country can support, very different to Muslim or anyother 3rd world peoples!

I for one don't want it in Britain at all, Google 'Ban Islam'. Not many want it, not even those Muslims who run away from Muslims countries!
Moderate Muslims, to believe that, would mean being 'a little bit pregnant' is valid.

[Marlene, Pendle 25 Sep 2006 18:05:00]

In conclusion, Jesus was neither a Jew nor a Christian, Lets see where the name Jew comes from. {Gen 11:31} we see that Abraham took his family out of his home land "Ur of the Chaldees"
Therefore, Abraham could not have been a Jew because that is a part of Iraq. He was more an Arab than a Jew. Secondly, the name Jew came after the existence of Judah, the great-grandson of Abraham.
Posted by: Riz London 25 Sep 2006 14:01:41

Riz... read this:
There were no 'Arabs' in 'Iraq' ....they were Assyrians.
Assyrians are a Semitic peoples indigenous to Mesopotamia. They are Mediterranean Caucasoids, and are ethnically distinct from Arabs and Jews. Assyrians have practiced two religions throughout their history: Ashurism and Christianity. The very word Assyrian, in its Latin form, derives from the name of Ashur, the Assyrian god. Assyrians continued to practice Ashurism until 256 A.D, although by that time, most Assyrians had accepted Christianity. Indeed, Assyrians were the first nation to accept Christianity, and the Assyrian Church was founded in 33 A.D. by Thomas, Bortholemew and Thaddeus. In Iraq it extends to about 100 miles south of Kirkuk. This is the Assyrian heartland, from which so much of the ancient Near East came to be controlled.

Source: Brief History of Assyrians by Peter BetBasoo.

[ROB--Birmingham 25 Sep 2006 17:38:12]

To Marlene from pendle saddam was torturing and killing tens of thousand every week please at least do check the veracity of your comments and not indulge in propaganda.

more people have been killed in iraq in 3 years of american occupation than were killed in the 35 years of his rule, if you check historical records you shall see the majority of the deaths during saddams time were against traitors who helped the iranian army take over parts of iraq, the next time people died in their thousands was when the kurds and shia were told to overthrow their own government by force by president bush senior and when they complied the americans stood back and watched how the iraq army routed the terorists in the south and north.

in regard to the death squads they have been caught red handed torturing people in the interior ministry buidlings and then killing them, under geneva conventions the occupier is responsible for the security of the occupied people,for every iraqi killed america is resposbile for his or her death.

i support our soldeirs and i want them back in britian in one piece and not in caskets.

[sentient - London 25 Sep 2006 15:49:13]

Hi it's me sentient again, just wanted to make some comments.

The Pope's recent control measure in the form of some pacifying comments should have been well scouted by many.

Riz's comments on this blog read like a poster, what is he / she trying to achieve ? It reads like a marketing campaign.

Islam is not a violent religion, no religion is violent, any organised set of beliefs that advocates the use of violence for whatever use is classified as a campaign.
What's really happening is that Islam is being used as a tool to recruit extremists who have focused their attention at both a country and a political ideal. At the same time this is being propagated by people who are using Islam as a cover.

Now why should we be angry at a religion or even make comments about it in such a manner ? Who are we really after ? who did the Pope really refer to ? The religion or the extremists using it ?

[Riz London 25 Sep 2006 14:11:16]

DOES ISLAM PROMOTE VIOLENCE?

Question:

Doesn’t Islam promote violence, bloodshed and brutality since the Qur’an says that Muslims should kill the kuffar where ever they find them?

Answer:

A few selected verses from the Qur’an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.

1. Verse from Surah Taubah
The following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:

"Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them."
[Al-Qur’an 9:5]

2. Context of verse is during battlefield
Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 9:5]

This verse is quoted during a battle.

3. Example of war between America and Vietnam
We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.

4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle

Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, "Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.

5. Shourie jumps from verse 5 to verse 7
Arun Shourie is one of the staunchest critics of Islam in India. He quotes the same verse, Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 in his book ‘The World of Fatwahs’, on page 572. After quoting verse 5 he jumps to verse 7 of Surah Taubah. Any sensible person will realise that he has skipped verse 6.

6. Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer
Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:

"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."
[Al-Qur’an 9:6]

The Qur’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an to promote peace in the world.

[Riz London 25 Sep 2006 14:01:41]

A Muslim is some one who Submits Their Will to God. This Is What Jesus Did and Taught.

Son of God is a figure of speech which many other Prophets were labeled as for example; in the King James Version of the Bible

(Psalms 2:7) David is the begotten Son of God.

Many others in the Bible are called God's son;

Jacob God's firstborn son (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Ephraim is God's firstborn son (Jeremiah 31:9)
Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38)

Other Prophets were Labeled as Messiah for example {1 Samuel 15:17} Which in Hebrew means Anointed/Chosen/Prophet;

Solomon (1 Kings 1:39)
David (1 Samuel 16:13)
Jewish priests (Leviticus 4)

Other Prophets Preformed similar Miracles as Jesus ;

Ezekiel raised many from the dead (Ezekiel 37:1-9)
Joshua stopped the sun and moon for one whole day (Joshua 10:12-13)
Elisha raised the dead, resurrected himself, healed a leper, fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn, and healed a blind man: (2 Kings 4:35, 13:21, 5:14, 4:44, and 6:11.)
Elijah raised the dead (1 Kings 17:22 and 14.)

Other Prophets were filled with the Holy Ghost;

Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:67)
Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:41)
Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 4:8)
Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 13:9)

Many other Prophets were called Lord for example;

Abraham (Genesis 18:12)
Esau (Genesis 32:4)
Joseph (Genesis 44:20)
David (1 Samuel 25:24)

Jesus taught to rinse before Praying as Muslims do {John 13:10}

Jesus bowed down in Submission on the Ground to God as Muslims do {Matthew 26:39}

Jesus said, all of You who Submit your will to God, are my true Brothers and Sisters (Mark 3:31-35) as Muslims do

Jesus taught Salvation comes from Submitting your will to God and Faith as Muslims do .

(Matthew 7:21-23) "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

In conclusion, Jesus was neither a Jew nor a Christian, Lets see where the name Jew comes from. {Gen 11:31} we see that Abraham took his family out of his home land "Ur of the Chaldees"

Therefore, Abraham could not have been a Jew because that is a part of Iraq. He was more an Arab than a Jew. Secondly, the name Jew came after the existence of Judah, the great-grandson of Abraham.

Abraham in the Bible is called "a Hebrew" {Genesis 14:13} which means a human from the other side of the Euphrates. It also means pertaining to Eber a descendant of Shem, clearly not "a Jew".

The descendants of Jacob were called Israelites {Gen 32:28} consisting of twelve tribes. Judah was nicknamed "Jew" so that only Judah's descendants were called Jews originally.

Moses, was from the tribe "Levite" {Exodus 6:16-20} therefore also not a Jew. The name Jew {according to the Bible} is not a reflection of "an organized religion" as you put it, but a Tribe, a fore name, an ancestor branch off of a large family tree.

Jesus may have been a Jew by birth right, but a Muslim by Faith.

Peace

[Simon, Crewe 25 Sep 2006 13:43:02]

the more i watch the television, the more i read the news paper the more im convinced that the only solution to this problem is the BNP and they get my vote from now on.

Maurice you are right "you couldnt make it up" this country is on its knees before islam, and until we stop blogging and start taking some action nothing will change so stop talkin and start doing, ring your MPs, ring Ian Blair and ask him to explain this nonsense, write to your local news papers, join the BNP and start campagining for what you want. If the last 5 or 10 years have taught us anything its that the slient majority will always be overlooked and rode rough shod over by the need to please those shouting the loudest.

Until you do nothing will change and unless you start soon it will be to late

[John, Ireland 25 Sep 2006 12:55:40]

Just in regards to that link posted by Maurice, I have never heard of a more unsound and dangerous idea in my entire life. The Police are now going to warn the Muslim leaders before they raid houses of supsected terrorists? Do they have a brain in any of their collective heads? How will they ascertain whether the muslim leader they are warning is not tied to the suspects? This is another attempt to be PC and not offend the muslims. Its time for this to stop. The police need to hit suspected terrorists hard and fast, not of give them any time to escape by advising possible sympathisers of their plans.

[SHAN--Birmingham 25 Sep 2006 12:41:21]

in response to lee we know were you get your information from about islam so we cannot argue with biased and skewed propaganda.

but the point that muslims kill more people every year then the spanish inquisition did in 350 years truly shows your ignorance and hatred of islam,in your reckoning the tens of millions of natives exterminated in central and south america were not humans in your opinion or are you trying to inform us that tens of millions of people are killed every year by so called islamic terrorists.

lastly you said remember the children of beslan and again you consider the forty thousand dead children of chechnya to be sub humans do you that you forgot to mention them,as i mentioned earlier if you are going to get your information from anti-islam websites than what you will get is propaganda if you want some reality check with the united nations yearly reports on deaths due to terorism be it state or by groups.

according to christians and jews if you do not beleive in their religions you will go to hell, so there is nothing new in this its called having a diffrence of opinion.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 25 Sep 2006 11:12:46]

You couldn't make it up:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-523-2372471-523,00.html
Could you?

[Riz London 25 Sep 2006 10:12:10]

Question:

How can Islam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?

Answer:

It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was the inherent force of truth, reason and logic that was responsible for the rapid spread of Islam.

1. Islam means peace.

Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).

2. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.

Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.

3. Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary.

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."

4. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

5. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

6. More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

7. Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"

8. East Coast of Africa.

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"

9. Thomas Carlyle.

The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."

10. No compulsion in religion.

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

11. Sword of the Intellect.

It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are
best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]

12. Increase in the world religions from 1934 to 1984.

An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?

13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.

Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?

14. Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson.

Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, "People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMED (pbuh) was born".

[Marlene, Pendle 25 Sep 2006 08:56:00]

i suppose you will want me to congratualte the americans for such proficency in training iraqis to clean up after the american run death squads operated from the interior ministry have done their work and obviously we will have to berate saddam hussain for being so evil that 3 million had no sewage collection. Posted by: ROB--Birmingham 22 Sep 2006 18:03:34

Rob, "American run death squads".. I am sorry, but I don't know what the hell you are talking about! Insurgents are killing their fellow Muslims. Saddam was torturing and killing tens of thousands of Iraqis every week. That is how evil dictators remain in power, through absolute terror. The Iraqi people are free from his oppression now and had the courage to go and vote. Your logic is completely topsy turvey and you should realise the courage of the coalition troops, et al, who are risking their lives to help the Iraqi people. We should support our brave troops and all those who help them.

[Gerard McGuigan Dundee 24 Sep 2006 21:35:26]

I see that a sheikh in Basra last wek said that Christians and Jews are the same because "They both preach brotherhood,love and forgiveness."

[camuk Manchester 24 Sep 2006 21:05:05]

when people say that the Muslims should go home they mean to their home land that they love and live for not Britain the one they were born in live in and whose resources they enjoy for a large part due to the charity of Christians

Please take your hate and religious bigotry back where it will be welcomed and agreed with rather the polluting the multicultural country that you freely admit you despise and hate

This is not racist as Islam is not a race but a religion that is enjoyed by all races but is becoming less tolerated in Britain as it has invaded every day life to such an extent that people fear loosing their jobs if they voice an opinion that is in opposition to Islam in the hearing of a Muslim who may or may not take offence and brand the person a racist

I live scared in my own country that at any moment my life or that of friends and family can be taken away by a fanatic over some religious slight that has nothing at all to do with me

I am reminded of a quote " if you can not beat them join them " maybe we should join them and take to the streets burning effigies of Allah and fire bombing mosques but that is not the Christian way because this is a peaceful religion

[Lee Southend 24 Sep 2006 12:44:01]

Hi All
Im back again heres 2 sources on the battle of Badr both mention raiding by Muslims and Killing during the holy months. Of course Muslims like to try to deny the bloodthirsty history of there religion to avoid looking inward at how they can reform and become "civilized" instead the Muslim population cling to there victimhood as an excuse to continue visiting there vile intolerent religion on the rest of us
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr
http://www.anwary-islam.com/battle/ghazwah_badr.htm

Shan and hes friend have not refuted my claims other than to use the out of context argument without any sources to back up there claims so to recap;

The Koran says that disbelievers (non-Muslims):
--are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:22, 8:55); (some Christians and/or Jews were) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); are like frightened donkeys chased by a lion (74:50-51), are like cattle—nay, worse than cattle (7:179), are like dogs (7:176);

and;
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

etc etc but of course these quotes are allways out of context when an Infidel quotes them and when a suicide bomber quotes it they are of course spot on.
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined source ( http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ )
Forget not the children of Beslan
cya folks

[Gee, Middle east 24 Sep 2006 12:30:57]

why should the pope have to appologise for words he spoke that were taken out of context.
what cannot be taken out of context is the saudi attitude on the christian religion. while muslims are free to practise their belief in predominantly christian society's, the saudi authorities are allowed to totally discriminate against christianity. christian meetings are totally banned in the country and any person carrying a bible on entry into the country, face having it confiscated and thrown into the rubbish bin alongside pornography and other litter.
come on let's be realistic

[Eddie. Lacashire 23 Sep 2006 20:59:29]

To Semi NY.
Regarding you comment about the Pope's German racist character, have you not heard of The Grand Mufti. one of your Muslim leaders who joined the Nazi party in Germany and incited Arabic and Muslims to slaughter the Jews wherever they might be.
And how can there be racist remarks on this board when we are talking about Muslims, that's a religion not a race, or had you forgotten that as well.
There is no sense in trying to argue with a Muslim, the Koran is written in stone, they are allowed no opinion on it's content and must totally accept it as being right and everyone else is wrong. They are trying to take over the UK bit by bit and will not be happy until we all bow to Mecca and as long as this Government bends over backwards to please them they will continue to chip away.

[Mark, Dubai, UAE 23 Sep 2006 17:02:58]

We are different in ways beyond most people can imagine. I refer to the following article from today's main English broadsheet in Dubai (an Islamic state):

Car kissing couple kissing under investigation
By Bassam Za'za', Staff Reporter

Dubai: The public prosecution is still questioning a 20-year-old national who was reportedly shot at after a civilian police patrol caught him kissing his fiancée inside his car in April.

Police referred M.S. and his 21-year-old female compatriot, who later became his wife, to the public prosecution on May 2 for kissing in public. The police also accused the man of assaulting and endangering the lives of policemen.

Enough said.

[Patricia. Jarrow. Tyne and Wear. 23 Sep 2006 14:30:14]

Jon Stockport. How right you are. I am rapidly getting an inkling of how it must have been for Jews living in Nazi Germany. The Muslims are the new fascists and I bitterly resent being sold down the river by the Quislings who have governed us for the past ten or twenty years. We are now second class citizens in our own country; how dare they take my right to freedom of speech and allow it only for the ethnics in general and the Muslims in particular. Enoch Powell was absolutely right when he warned us " they will get the whip hand!"
I live in a Labour heartland where everyone votes Labour because their father and grandfather voted that way, so my vote for the BNP (can't believe I am saying that)will be wasted, but I dare say they will be able to make use of my contribution.

[Jon, Stockport 23 Sep 2006 12:40:29]

I truly believe muslims are deluded when it comes to their view of the world around their religion. A recent example is a muslim work colleague of mine who is normally very westernised (no headscarf, etc) was sprouting on about how evil the Pope was for insulting Muhammed. She took serious offence at me for suggesting there may have been an over reaction on the part of the muslims. I argued no further as I know the law of the land is on the muslim side due to the PC dictatorship we are living in and if she made a complaint about me somehow being racist for offering a constructive opinion, I'd be out of a job. I'm sure many others on here have been in similar situations. I like many others on here have had enough of islam's infiltration of western society.

[SHAN--Birmingham 23 Sep 2006 12:03:17]

in response to stacy i do not know where you get your information from but i pay my taxes and obey the law of the land like every one else.
i do not think it is law of the land for me to get drunk and shout verbal abuse and take illegal substances and commit adultery, otherwise please elaborate what you mean by culture.

sicne in your opinion all muslims are criminals unti proven otherwise, i invite you to ask all christians to swear a oath that they will never go around butchering people all over the world and rob their resources using deceitful and devious methods.

do you want me to be proud of genocide-concentration camps-slavery and theft, maybe you should check the imperial history of britain before labelling all muslims.

we are citizens of brtiain and pay our dues and obey the law like every one else, your bogitory is all too apparent.

for your satisfaction my family has been in britain for the last 60 years and my grandfather fought for britain and we have worked for what we have today.

[Trevor 23 Sep 2006 11:33:31]

"I bet 75 vigins in paradise that you would never swear allegiance to this country its culture its Queen as head of State respect its laws and history and VOW never to do violence to the people who live here, unlike those monsters who murdered Muslim, Christian, Indain et al on July 7 2005 .
If you cannot you should be forceably removed to "GO AND LIVE ELSEWHERE"
This should be demanded of all Muslims living in this country.
You have tried our goodwill to breaking point!"

Posted by: barton stacy 22 Sep 2006 17:28:11

--------------------------------------------

I don't disagree with you at all Barton Stacey.

But it's 72 virgins, not 75.
Don't start upping the stakes for goodness sake ! :-)

[M Heywood 23 Sep 2006 01:42:39]

In case anyone missed Rob's comments on the Blair visits Lebanon thread,I quote ..."the freedom to live free of fear, to do what they like in their own nation, to go where they like to go in their own nation and to live their live show(sic)they see fit". Whilst he was referring to Palestinians, one could be mistaken for believing that he actually understood the British after all!!

[Dee 23 Sep 2006 01:23:10]

To Shan and Rob in Birmingham. Are you the one and the same or perhaps two friends. Why don't you share with the other regulars here your ideas of a good weekend in Birmingham to see if there is common ground for integration and understanding.

[Dee 23 Sep 2006 01:10:27]

Rob, The occupation as you call it was the Iraqis' opportunity to show the world and prove to themselves that they could manage very nicely thank you without Saddam Hussein. The irony is that whilst you are living in Birmingham our soldiers are dying trying to help the Iraqis and still you complain. How do you think that the British people feel invaded by Moslems who share your views and values. We feel the same as you do, occupied in our country and held hostage by militant Islamists who have no legitimate place here. How does it feel for you to be the invader in a hostile land? And more importantly, what should the British people do to people like you who are occupying the homes that should have gone to British people. How many bodies did we have after 7/7, did you bother to count them or do you believe our foreign policy brought this about and they deserved to die.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 22 Sep 2006 23:10:25]

Adam & Sky I compliment you on running this very open Blog!
Good on-ya, reality is what it is, and Sky and your moderators are realists - thanks!
It is a great shame that we must all turn to the BNP to establish our rightful claim on our OWN country, despite our spineless politicians.
The BNP seems to be the only place for many of us to go, and that is the choice Labour, Tories and the Lib/Dims have left us.

[k 22 Sep 2006 19:39:56]

This comment is for all the people who are complaining about muslims being generalised. I have had many muslim friends in my life and do not feel I can say all muslims are violent. Neither are Americans. My husband is there in the middle east away from his family and every day wishes he could come home. He has been there for four months and I hope he is home by chrismas. He is working along side muslims helping them to regain their country and get it back on its feet. He has never killed any one and does not intend to. He is a loving father and husband who wants peace as much as the next person. So to say that they are there murdering muslims is very sad and just as bad as saying all muslims are terrorists. I am sick of having to defend my husbands good name. If you really feel that there is an injustice going on there feel free to hop a plane and see who really is doing all the killing in these countries. I am proud of the job my husband is doing.

[Lee Southend 22 Sep 2006 18:56:25]

Hiya All
Shan Iv found that the information in pro Islam sites to be unreliable (taqiyya?) Where as the anti-Islam ones I visit quickly get taken to task for inaccuracies. You have attempted to rubbish my sources but you name none of your own.
I think we will have to agree to disagree which is often the case when discussing religion. No doubt we will speak again.

PS Adam great blogg how about a list of related links in the wide blue bit thats over here --->

[Mark, UK 22 Sep 2006 18:34:14]

Rob (Birmingham), Jo, Moe, TL (London), Shahid (Luton), Shan (Birmingham) et al: The defiant war-like speech of Nasrallah (Leader of Hizbolllah) citing the support of Iran and Syria and boasting of having over offensive 20,000 rockets, indicates why Israel has the right of self-defence of bombing Hizbollah areas a few weeks ago. The anti-war movement (like Clare Short and George Galloway) should not support such blood-thirsty war mongering mad-man and his supporters.

[M Heywood 22 Sep 2006 18:15:09]

Shan you make many mistakes in your comments, the first being that I have a contempt for humanity, whatever that means. Broad meaningless expressions show a lack of specific definition. Israel did indeed damage infrasructure in Lebanon. The schools you refer to were being used by rather nasty people using a place reserved for Moslem children as a shield. Likewise hospitals, ambulances and people's homes. Your friend Mr Nasrallah has just come out of hiding as the Israelis have pulled out of Lebanon. Scared for his own life, he had no problem in subjecting the Lebanese people to the might of the Israeli retaliation for Hizbollah's unprovoked attack on Israeli civilians. Check with the UN report if you aren't afraid of the truth. Also if you would care to expand your limited knowledge I would suggest you turn to Brigitte Gabriel's website, American Congress for Truth where you will find first hand knowledge of a Lebanese Christian's torment at the hands of Moslems, the way she was brought up to believe Israelis and Jews were evil and the truth she discovered when she escaped to Israel with her injured mother. Palestinians can choose to live in peace or not. They are at war with Israel and are suffering the consequences of trying daily to kill innocent Israelis by firing Katushas from Gaza and smuggling in arms from Egypt. They are at war, have chosen that path and are living the consequences. They have free choice as everyone does. They choose to be victims because the alternative is to live alongside Israel as demanded by the entire world, which they choose not to do. Jews against Zionism are a number of ultra orthodix jews who believe that the establishment of the State of Israel will delay the coming of the Jewish Messiah, not a view shared by very many Jews, but thanks for the information. The Moslem perception of victimhood is not shared by billions of people, although of course you may share that opinion. The UN and the EU, are refusing to deal with Hamas, and the Palestinian man in the street elected them, so it is they who are flying in the face of the world and suffering the consequences.

[ROB--Birmingham 22 Sep 2006 18:03:34]

To dee thank you for alerting me to the other side of the coin and how the occupation has cleaned up iraq and during saddams time 3 million people had to live without refuse collection and now the american trained iraqis are efficently collecting thousands of iraq dead bodies every month.

i suppose you will want me to congratualte the americans for such proficency in training iraqis to clean up after the american run death squads operated from the interior ministry have done their work and obviously we will have to berate saddam hussain for being so evil that 3 million had no sewage collection.

the reality dee is that iraq was the most advanced arab country in the middleast before the war against iran it had free education and free health service and during the 12 years of sanctions and bombings by america it managed to run its electricty and water plants, today the people are queing miles to get petrol and electricity comes 3 or 4 hours a day and there is no refuse collection and no security of life and limb for 15 million people.

i was wondering when the americans will be invading africa-south america and asia since i have heard that hundreds of millions of people have no refuse and sewage services there.

in their history the people of what is iraq today have never gone on people to people killing sprees, wherever the maerican go death squads follow, like in vietnam operation phoenix 40 thousand people were terminated-the butcher of salvador ambassdor negroponte went to iraq to get the death squads running.

according to the U.N torture in now more common and widespread then it was under saddam and he was called evil and barbaric, so we should not play with the lives of iraqis they are humans and not animals that the occupiers cannot be bothered to count how many they have killed.

[m.n 22 Sep 2006 17:59:50]

I recomend the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades by Robert Spencer to anyone interested in finding out more on this subject and I recomend that right thinking people arm themselves with knowledge to defeat the PC nonsence.

Posted by: Lee Southend 18 Sep 2006 18:44:12

----------------------

i agree a great book EVERY brit should read -a real eye opener
the website hosted by robert spencer is
http://jihadwatch.org/

pop this website in your favourites it is updated daily

remember knowledge & truth is power.

[barton stacy 22 Sep 2006 17:39:22]

On a non confrontational note I feel the prophet's most illuminating statment was:
"never give a blind squirrel in a sack a book to read"
I hope this leads you to the light of all knowledge it did me.

[m.n 22 Sep 2006 17:32:19]

OUR BIGGEST FAULT:-
we are at WAR yet we are fighting by the queensbury rules the other side is not.
which side is stupid?
this government also needs to realise that a some of the enemy is also within.5th column? and must act accordingly

as churchill said
"an appeaser is the man who feed the crocodile in the hope it eats him last"

[barton stacy 22 Sep 2006 17:28:11]

Shan
I bet 75 vigins in paradise that you would never swear alligence to this country its culture its Queen as head of State respect its laws and history and VOW never to do violence to the people who live here, unlike those monsters who murdered Muslim, Christian, Indain et al on July 7 2005 .
if you cannot you should be forceably removed to "GO AND LIVE ELSEWHERE"
This should be demanded of all Muslims living in this country.
You have tried our goodwill to breaking point!

[SHEILA 22 Sep 2006 17:27:08]

It is time for the world to wake up and realise that Islam is the biggist danger the world has faced for some time.

Posted by: Paul Huddersfield 18 Sep 2006 16:16:44

---------------------------

it certainly is
but POLICAL CORRECTNESS will hinder any clear decisive action. PC must go now before more lives are lost.mainstream media also has a big part to play in educating people.

[lisa 22 Sep 2006 17:20:40]

It's becoming increasingly apparent the so-called ‘religion of peace’ is anything but. And it certainly doesn't appear to be a tolerant religion. However, we shouldn't fall into the trap of stereotyping all Muslims as highly politicised with an anti-western agenda.

Posted by: The UK Daily Pundit - UK 18 Sep 2006 12:53:27
--------------------------------------

Your right not all Muslims are bad but Islam has no room for manoeuvre. To be true to Islam it must DOMINATE over all other religions & subjugate the rest. Also Muslims are told take neither Jew nor Christian as your friend. So this is where integration is a pipe dream.also to be true to islam it needs to introduce sharia laws, So most Muslims are stuck. Hence where is the moderate Muslim? And if you leave the "religion" you are apostate & this results in your very own fatwa.

this is why islam/the muslim community is not integrating

we should invite all muslims in britain to realise they are free to leave & not be afraid to do so you live in a free country.

& the popes crime=reading a book
enough said.

[John of England 22 Sep 2006 17:19:06]

The collective in overwhelming majority is venting its anger, frustration and disgust at Islamic response to the Popes speech rightly to me that Islam is a religion of intolerance, hate and violence against "kafurs" that converted non believers by the sword such fantantical beliefs no one can ever share space with them peacefully unless ON THEIR TERMS, their comments as posted on this blog highlights the repugnet to me display of "fained horror" at the Popes speech by muslims world wide many who do not even speak English, ( wonder how they instantly become "a rent a mob").
The Pope speaks, the Muslims murder a aged nun, burn Chritian Church's, execute Christians in Indonisia for murder while jailing Islamic terrorists for the same crime of religoius hate.
Muslims have abused our hospitality and patience I have had enough, just listen to the venom spat out by Choudry
How do we proceed next?
Our current political system has allowed this to happen to us I will never vote for a main stream party again they are all "tarred with same brush".

[honey 22 Sep 2006 17:04:34]

WHEN ARE THE POLITICIANS GOING TO LISTEN TO THE SILENT MAJORITY....WHEN?

Posted by: carolyn - Bradford 21 Sep 2006 13:52:16
----------------------------
when you vote for a party other than the main three.

[SHAN--Birmingham 22 Sep 2006 12:34:30]

lee its nice to know that you get your information from websites which cater to anti-islam information.

i wish to alert you to the fact that not once were the caravans of the qureish robbed or ambushed and to prove my point if you check out were the battle of badr took place you shall see it was in the outskirts of medina and the rulers of mecca had come to medina as they felt threatened by the rising number of converts and the islamic state which was evolving, its always nice to give false propaganda based on deceit as is happening today in iraq where hundreds of thousands of iraqis are dead or injured based on lies and deceit.

i thank you for inviting me to leave islam but as someone who studies diffrent religions, the quran is the only one that has not been changed to suit peoples desires.

[SHAN--Birmingham 22 Sep 2006 12:20:49]

Well m.heywood the views you hold are the ones which clearly shows your contempt for humanity, you could have fooled me and the billions of other people in the world that the israeli zionists do not like to kill people, you have forgotten lebanon so quickly where roads-bridges-schools-water pumps-airports-petrol stations and factories were bombeds killing and injuring thousands of humans, maybe in your thinking these people do not matter.

so the palestinians in gaza are free maybe if you were to live in simialr conditions then you will realise they are free to be attacked and killed at any time, their food-water and electricty can be cut off at any time by israeli zionists.

israel was founded by terrorism and is maintained by terror, i suppose the haganah and stern gangs were peace loving citizens, i have read the history of zionism and its brutality agaisnt the palestinian people who have resided in palestine for nearly 2500 years and i think that gives them more rights then people who took over 60 years ago with the help of western nations.

if you really believe in peace and justice you should check out the following site www.jewsagainstzionism.com like i have done and you shall see the reality of zionism.

you are informing the kashmiri and chechen people to accept their oppressers and tormenters, but you could not state the obvious that all nations have a right to freedom and these two countries should be free from foreign occupation,if we had done the same then today europe would be controlled by nazis, we know the diffrence between right and wrong and we will not side with the occupiers and murderers.

[Dee, London 22 Sep 2006 10:31:55]

Rob in Birmingham. Please don't take offence, but like our friend Lee in Southend, I have been doing some research around the topics discussed here. Iraq, as it is today has not been around for the 1400 years you quote and most certainly there has always been tribal conflict in what is now known as Iraq. The "occupiers" as you call them, are trying to train Iraqis to govern themselves, no easy task. Did you know for example that whilst Mr Hussein was the benign leader of Iraq, 3 million people had no refuse collection for decades, with the sewers ruining drinking water, which the "invading armies" sorted out by training 6,800 Iraqis how to manage the problem themselves. The invadere are training the police and the army how to manage public order by themselves. Who is killing these recruits? Moslems, not the "infidels" - moslems financed by other moslem nations, not by Americans. There are always two sides to every story, but when bigotry is present, blinkers are worn. Instead of blaming the West, where in hindsight they were completely wrong in toppling the only leader who could "unite" Iraqis, why not see the reality that Mr Hussein was keeping the lid on the vengeful and bloodthirsty nature of "ordinary" Iraqis. Then you might see the other side of the coin, start to look inward and see that Moslems are unable to co-exist with themselves. I am simply asking you to temper your argument to see that Moslems do have a problem and that not all their ills can be blamed on infidels/invaders/the west/etc. When Moslems start to face up to their own shortcomings, they will receive the respect they obviously crave.

[M Heywood 22 Sep 2006 09:27:26]

Rob in Birmingham. Israel is a Jewish State where all religions are practiced. Why Israel will never give in to any pressure to give any more of its territory to "palestinians" is because these people have never had, and will never have, any intention of living side by side with Israel. They refer to Israel as "palestine", which it is not and never will be except in arab fantasies. You can produce maps that show palestine from the Med to Jordan, your friend in Iran can call for Israel to be wiped out, but the only people living in fantasy land are people like you, millions of them. The Arabs in Gaza are free people but choose to live in the chains they are creating for themselves. Like the Iraqis, they have no idea what freedom means and will continue the "struggle" because they do not know and have never been taught how to live peacefully without bothering their neighbours. Israel has nothing to gain from fighting the palestinians. Two states were set up by the UN in 1948, which Israel accepted but the Arabs did not. If you have time, Rob, read the Book of Psalms and the book of King Solomon and you will learn that Jews find inspiration and guidance for their lives from their God out of love. Our God commands us to be joyful because our joy makes Him happy and our tears make Him sad. People became so used to Jews' acceptance of hatred without a murmur that they believed they could wipe them out, hence the Nazis and then the Arabs' reaction in 1948 Let me inform you Rob that it does not come easy to Jews to kill. Nowhere in history have Jews caused violence to anyone, but had to learn fast how to defend themselves after the legitimate and lawful creation of the State of Israel by the UN - an organisation controlled by Moslems and Christians in the main. It pains every Jew to kill because it goes against our belief in God and that belief is what our enemies take advantage of. How many Arabs have said, "we glorify death in the way you glorify life". Those who choose to live in peace will always find a friend in Jews and Israel, but those who wish to destroy Israel will find no stronger defender of their right to life. Learn to love life and maybe your hatred might melt away and you can make peace with the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians, and everywhere else in the world you mention.

[Graham - Berkshire 22 Sep 2006 07:35:01]

It’s all a load of old Tosh!
No form of religion can be actually proven in any way.
In particular Islam and the Muslim religion, the Catholic religion and Christianity is just a way of policing the State, exercising control, domination if you will. (Anyone remembers that dreadful man called Runcy, my goodness what a hypocrite he was!) Muslim extremists are not dissimilar to The Pope, Blair and Dubya in a way. All set them selves up as the ‘world police’ and expect no one to question that and ‘police’ the world in their own ways. So at the bottom of all this is world domination through despotic means, all in the name of religion. All suffer with the ‘mines bigger than yours’ syndrome and all consider themselves to be right, sadly in my opinion they are all completely delusional. Anyone who can ‘worship’ some unproven, archaic and anachronistic theory in the 21st century has to be questionable and may need a sanity/reality check.

[Ahead OfmyTime 22 Sep 2006 00:42:45]

Divisions can only end in collisions,
Negative Decisions made due to false traditions,
Deceit and Hatred found in cold looks,
Ignorance and Irrelevance found in old books,
Still people follow every word every letter,
In a time when we should've evolved to know better.

[Lee Southend 21 Sep 2006 20:27:22]

Hiya All
Thanks for the surport folks.

Shan thanks for replying. Im no expert myself as I discoverd Islam during the cartoon riots (about 6 months ago) but I try to do my research, you are indead correct that fighting was prohibited during the holy months although not all the time.
Your example of Mecca I think is out of context it was from a time when Mohammad had few followers even hes uncle (Abu Lahab) rejected hes message. He did have to flee from Mecca in 622 and went to Medina where he was welcomed as prophet by a warrior tribe. Mohammad started raiding the caravans of the Quraysh(Mohammads own tribe), With Mohammad leading many of the raids. Soon after a raid on a Quraysh caravan at Nakhla (a settlment near to Mecca)during the holy months Mohammad heard of a large caravan comming from Syria. This time the Quraysh were ready and brought approx 1000 men to the battle though Mohammads 300 still won the day this was the battle of Badr.(sorce politically incorrect guide to islam and the crusades Robert Spencer)
When shown in this context it seems that Mohammad after being exiled from hes home city started Islam in the nearby town Medina, and for 13years raided the caravans of hes own people. It was only then that the Quraysh took action to stop him.
Unfortunately the main problem is that the Koran being "the immutable word of god" is that Mohammads call to "slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them". - 9:5
also becomes unchangeable for all time as it is the word of god through hes prophet.

Shan may I invite you to leave Islam. I beleave that Ali Sina's site http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php provids help for people who want to leave.

[John of England 21 Sep 2006 19:27:58]

Rob
what planet do you inhabit? it is not Earth but a construct of surreal self justification that has no connection with reality Islam is a religion of peace and goodwill to all humanity, yeah! pigs can fly!.
You as are so many muslims in TOTAL DENIAL you cannot see the truth if presented by 75 virgins (is that too many for you to handle?) to you in paradise to which you all aspire, I feel sorry for your earthly wives sitting in the back of your Toyota pick-up with the goats, (memories of my 3 years in Saudi Arabia).
Your ignorance is breathtaking how can we have dialogue with denial'ers such as you please please go and live in a Muslim dominated country where you can live your Islamic dream
Many of us natives would gladly assist your passage!

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 21 Sep 2006 18:44:16]

ROB: Are these the sort of terrorists you are talking about in Kashmir:-
http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?category=National&template=Ceasefire&slug=Kashmiri+boys+struggle+after+torture&id=93324&callid=1
Or maybe in Indonesia:-
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52070
How about Nigeria:-
http://www.thisdayonline.com/nview.php?id=58832
Maybe Britain:-
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002995.html
Palestine:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913651799&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Sudan:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5321368.stm
ROB - You really should read:-
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html

[andrew ,redditch 21 Sep 2006 18:28:22]

muslims are the 21st centuries version of hitlers nazis , they want to take over the world and install theirselves as the master race , they even wear a uniform ,or at least make their women do so , and wish to destroy or enslave all those who do not follow their ways .the west should wake up and declare war on this fascist army ,apeasement did not work with hitler and it will not work with these racist, sexist and intollerant savages.

[Maurice - Northumberland - Former UK 21 Sep 2006 17:41:49]

Here ya go folks - trek through:-
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early.php

And afterwards, help Rob - to get his point over, whatever it might be, history as the Muslims says it is, then there is history as is it really was.

ROB - How many times is Jerusalem referred to in the Koran?
ROB - How many times is it referred to in the Torah?

[karl,london 21 Sep 2006 16:08:43]

I think ROB from Birmingham needs a reality check .He quotes at length the hundreds of years the moslems have occupied various parts of europe but misses the point completely.The point is :who invaded who? Who was the aggressor on each occasion.The answer is obvious:the moslems.As for comparing the longterm colonization of America over almost 400 years by europeans, which by and large happened peacefully apart from some inevitable conflicts here and there with some native indian tribes ,with forcible subjugation of christian countries under moslem conquest,he must be totally barmy!His quotes of the duration of the moslem occupations speak for themselves,in that it took centuries to dislodge these moslem invaders!

[Mark - London 21 Sep 2006 14:29:49]

Maybe we should reclassify WMD as Whinging Muslim Disorder

fact 95% of the worlds refuges are muslim.
I believe this part of a master plan to turn the convert the entire planet to islam.

We need to be very careful

[carolyn - Bradford 21 Sep 2006 13:52:16]

When is this government going to take note. The British people are sick and tired of walking on egg shells?
Instead of bending over backwards to appease the muslim population, they should be taking note of how frustrated and worried the indiginous population is. They were elected by us! Why dont they listen to the people who put them in government? i want someone to answer questions. To listen to our comments and fears.
It is a slippery slope we are now on. Unless something is done to stop the rot we will never be able to go back. You are not allowed to complain or make a comment because its deemed racist, unless of course you are a muslim! The police have their hands tied, and have to give reasons to the "community" if they want to arrest someone. Would they do that to an English person do they come and talk to our communities, listen to our fears no they bloody well dont. I for one have just about had enough, WHEN ARE THE POLITICIANS GOING TO LISTEN TO THE SILENT MAJORITY....WHEN?

[ROB--Birmingham 21 Sep 2006 12:52:12]

I agree with you 100 per cent dee that we should not have endless arguments about what happened in history but i feel you should read my article and what it was in response to and then you would understand the point i was making.

it is rather odd that muslims of iraq have lived togather for 1400 years and all of a sudden they start killing each other quite convenient for the occupiers since this was their aim to partition iraq into 3 separate nations.

just another point the death squads going around doing the killing are financed by america as they are the ones who pay the iraqi government and armed forces, i am sure you have watched the news channels showing torture centres run by the interior ministry.

divide and rule is the oldest trick in the colonisers and imperialists book, by the way
i am against murderers and theives and if in your thinking that is wrong then you need to adjust to reality.

[UK Daily Pundit - UK 21 Sep 2006 11:38:00]

Compare the treatment of Walter Wolfgang who was ejected from the Labour Party conference last year for uttering one word - rubbish, and the treatment yesterday of an extremist Muslim who was allowed to give a hate-filled speech in front of the world's media. There appears to be one rule for extremists and another for everyone else.

[Kay in London 21 Sep 2006 11:28:48]

Shan in Birmingham. You are interpreting the Qran According to Shan. The events may have taken place 1400 years ago, but I thought moslems believed the qran was the word of their allah and cannot be changed. Why was fighting stopped during periods when moslems don't eat during sunlight and obviously weakened and no match for their enemies? Oops! You obviously had a problem with idol worshippers then and I believe that noslems still identify everyone else who is not a moslem with those "idol worshippers". I cannot be the only person who takes issue with your hijacking our God when referring to the god you call allah, but that goes a long way to explain why Moslems hate everyone else as you seem to believe that God belongs to you alone. There are no scholars of the Qran, everyone interprets it the way they want to which would leave scholars redundant non-entities.

in response to m heywood muslims are the only ones fighting globally using religion you need to check the reality of events, palestine is occupied by zionist terorists the palestinians are fighting for freedom for palestine.

The people of kashmir are occupied by indian state terrorists and they are demanding freedom for kashmir.

The chechens are fighting russain state terorists to free che