Vince Cable's quote during Prime Minister's Question is mentioned below, but it's worth repeating, and illustrating with its own picture.

"This House has noted the Prime Minister's remarkable transformation from Stalin to Mr Bean in the past few weeks."

Comments

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 5 Dec 2007 14:00:45]

Posted by: carol-ann liverpool 5 Dec 2007 11:50:41: “These are not MY concepts, they are concepts developed by disabled people themselves and by academics, to explain how and why disabled people suffer disadvantage in education, work, healthcare etc. There was an assumption that disabled people were one homogenous group�.

I believe/understand that you are wheelchair bound yourself. But I have years of experiences with people with ‘disabilities’ (mental and physical) as a duly triple qualified General and Mental Registered Nurse and MSC academic/PGDE lecturer (apart from my other Biochemistry graduate and conversation postgraduate degrees - like in Law, Solicitors Practice (LPC), Psychology and Medical Sciences).
However, I, as a member and the experience of being an healthcare professional, I know that your interpretations of the so called ‘medical’ and ‘social’ models as applied to disabilities are twisted and biased. As I stated before, everyone are unique and a ‘medical model’ would also consider the practicality of each individual’s needs (as everyone is unique, of course). This is the art and science of healthcare. The 'basics' as you claimed to be; can only be gained through years of experience, which I certainly have.

[carol-ann liverpool 5 Dec 2007 11:50:41]

Peter C

That was only An Intro to Basic concepts

These are not MY concepts, they are concepts developed by disabled people themselves and by academics, to explain how and why disabled people suffer disadvantage in education, work, healthcare etc.
After the war, there were many disabled service-personnel who were jobless - it was decided that there would be a quota system so that large organisations would have to set aside certain jobs, that were considered suitable for disabled people.
Some jobs were seen as jobs that should be offered to disabled people
E.g. Car park attendants and lift operators..

The problem with thatwas that able bodied people were deciding what was suitable jobs for disabled people based on their own prejudices and assumptions

There was an assumption that disabled people were one homogenous group - no account was taken of their individual abilities....also, the jobs that were considered suitable for them were all low-paid.

I didn't want to go into the issue in any more detail - because I was waiting to see if you understood the basic concepts.
As you seem not to grasp the basics or don't want to - then no progress is going to be made in your understanding of the issues, from the point of view of disabled people themselves.

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 5 Dec 2007 10:09:20]

Posted by: carol-ann liverpool 5 Dec 2007 05:18:06
Sorry, Ann-Carol your twisted (as usual) interpretations of the ‘medical’ and ‘social’ models are ludicrous. A ‘medical model’ would also consider the practicality of each individual’s needs (as everyone is unique, of course). This is the art and science of healthcare.

[carol-ann liverpool 5 Dec 2007 05:18:06]

Peter C and Co -

There are two main models with regard to attitudes to disability:

The Medical Model and
The Social Model

The Medical Model says:
YOU have a problem - what can we ,as a society, do to help you

An example of how the medical model is applied is:

Example: Library with a flight of stone steps to entrance

WE have provided you with a disabled entrance at the back of the library.
So you now have access to the library - you will have to ring a bell and wait til someone is available to unlock the door for you
(therefore making you feel like a 'second class' citizen rather than equal to other citizens.

TTHE SOCIAL MODEL would say let us make the library accessible for all - for example, our entrance is inaccessible not only for disabled people but also for many elderly people and for families with pushchairs so..
We will make one accessible entrance for all, by building ramps, automatic doors, hand rails etc.

Services for diabled people tend to have a mix in various ratios of the two models

[Bruce Hulmes / England 4 Dec 2007 12:11:21]

Effie.
Why do you just highlight pre-war Germany. Are you not aware that many per-war western countries tried to hide away and do much worse things to disabled people.
Try Sweden,Norway,America and of course good old GB.
In certain American states young people with mental or
behavioural problems were forcibley sterilized and incarcerated for life which also happened in this country long after world war 2 had ended. And we were still sending orphans to parts of the comonwealth many who were just used for cheap labour well into the 1950s, so much for the country which led the way in abolishing black slavery. Do you know the truth are you just reluctant for political reasons to admit to it.

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 4 Dec 2007 10:53:08]

I always read what you posted carefully (especially dressed to me) and I am always pleased to answer your posts. I tried to answer your posting several times on this blog on Friday last week but was denied doing so until Monday.

You asked “What is it about you and the dis-abled are you developing a pre war Germany Syndrome that they should be shut away�? Let me reply. Of course I do not believe in the Victorian or pre-war Germany’s mentality of putting ‘misfits’ into institutions (or even worse concentration camps). I do realise that, through no fault of their own, due to factors or the interaction of factors (like genetic, physical, economic, environmental, mental, psychological, upbringing, etc), some people can be considered ‘disabled' by society. Yes, some people are more ‘able’ to do certain tasks than others, compared to certain ‘disabled’ people (by definition). But surely that does not mean that I am actually saying that disabled people are of less value to society, are less human or having less rights (in fact they more rights). As I said earlier, I certainly and actually respect disabled people, as well as being able show empathy and unconditional positive regard towards them. I certainly believe that everyone is unique, of equal value and is always a job or niche that disabled people can do.

[Patricia 3 Dec 2007 20:26:57]

I would like to know what one has to do to be allowed to post at all?. I have been denied the right of reply to two extremely defamatory posts made by Effie, a reply to Eliz. Davies and one in which I actually agreed with Effie,a very rare occasion indeed, since the 30th Nov.
This has happened several times in the past and always in relation to Effie.

[Effie 3 Dec 2007 17:38:21]

What does one have to do to get a reply into a question one has been asked.
I notice others can get an answer in on the question but the person that the question is being asked of appears to have no chance.

Peter I have replied three times to your post, Victor has managed to get in, I do not know what act I have to perform to reply.
I just hope sometime before the end of this decade I might get a chance, but as I was defending Brown it may be difficult!!

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 3 Dec 2007 16:22:32]

Posted by: Victor, NW Kent 3 Dec 2007 15:25:15 : “I do remember Jack Straw saying that he refused to speak to veiled Muslim women in his surgery because he could not see their faces and their expressions. If this was difficult for him would it not be almost impossible for a blind man? Some people are more suited to certain things then others�.

Exactly, Victor. I certainly and actually respect disabled people, as well as being able show empathy and unconditional positive regard towards them. I do realise that, through no fault of their own, due to factors or the interaction of factors (like genetic, physical, economic, environmental, mental, psychological, upbringing, etc), some people can be considered ‘disabled'. Yes, some people are more ‘able’ to do certain tasks than others, compared to certain ‘disabled’ people (by definition). But surely that does not mean that I am actually saying that disabled people are of less value to society, are less human or having less rights (in fact they more rights).

[Victor, NW Kent 3 Dec 2007 15:25:15]

Effie and Peter

I had not really intended to enter this argument but I do remember Jack Straw saying that he refused to speak to veiled Muslim women in his surgery because he could not see their faces and their expressions. Jack is a trained lawyer, as you know.

If this was difficult for him would it not be almost impossible for a blind man?

I have both respect and sympathy for disabled people and what they are able to achieve but some people are not born to do some tasks. That does not make them less valuable but less able in certain ways. Those are very different matters.

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 3 Dec 2007 14:34:51]

Effie I do not mind being berated by you but the point I was making about David Blunkett’s blindness was that he inadvertently (though no fault of his own) as a result may be a poorer judge of character. Frankly and honestly, the point is that it has NEVER entered my mind or view that disabled people are of less value, nor did I EVER stated that! Are you actually agreeing now, however, that in your opinion that your beloved PM has any disabilities whatsoever? I wish to clarify and state that I certainly agree and am not foolish enough not to know that any disabilities are certainly not (nor should it be) the 'fault' or a slur on the person concerned.

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 3 Dec 2007 14:19:58]

Posted by: Effe 30 Nov 2007 10:52:58: “It is the height of ignorance and sheer bad manners to mention such a thing as people no matter what their disabilities are, are all of the same equal value�.

Frankly and honestly, the point is that it has NEVER entered my mind or view that disabled people are of less value, nor did I EVER stated that! Are you actually agreeing now, however, that in your opinion that your beloved PM has any disabilities whatsoever? I wish to clarify and state that I certainly agree and am not foolish enough not to know that any disabilities are certainly not (nor should it be) the 'fault' or a slur on the person concerned.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 3 Dec 2007 10:35:06]

Merv
Quite right Merv you have read your Prime Minister correctly, he does not have much wit which is an impediment to doing the job properly in the bear pit they call the "house". He will be turning to drink soon if he has to face Mr Cameron every week at the dispatch box, you can see how he hates it. But it is a very important part of his job as PM to stand up to his opposite numbers. Mr Blair made PM's questions look easy as he is an attorney and had a fine wit, I afraid Mr Brown will never fill Blairs shoes!

[james marske by the sea 2 Dec 2007 20:51:24]

labour core vote is in the North of England it has often been said if you put on the ballot sheet " A MONKEY LABOUR"then people would vote for it and they have done in hartlepool the local football team mascot" a monkey" became Mayor. Labour have always held power in the teesside area and what have they done over 30/40/50 years. ZERO drugs,crime, unemployment,single mother,worst health record in the U.K highest rates and I could go on and on. But they will always get the vote why BEATS ME?

[Merv. Beszant, Dubai 2 Dec 2007 18:08:33]

Unfortunately for Gordon he does not have the ability to handle comments such as Vince Price's, and in today's nasty political climate this is a major flaw in his character. It's no good just looking angry, as this immediately results in people laughing even more, and when you are the P.M. you have to be able to give as good as you get, and before somebody suggests that Gordon isn't like that I would suggest that he needs to be if he wants to survive in power.

[Trevor 1 Dec 2007 10:49:40]

There are two major thought lines behind Socialist thinking. Once you know what they are, the shallow nature of its adherents becomes clear ...

"I haven't got it, so why should they have it."

"They've got it so I'm entitled to it."

It was always so.

[carol-ann liverpool 30 Nov 2007 19:57:57]

Victor

the fact that you even ask the question, indicates to me that it is pointless trying to answer.

You have the get on your bike- Tebbit mindset-fixed and inflexible; therefore, unlikely to empathise with those who have a different perspective, or who are less prvileged than yourself

As soon as I hear a version of:
"I had it tough but I got off my backsiide.... or all its various manifestations......"

I know it is pointless even having the debate.

Well, bully for you, but why do you and others, on here' take one or two cases of people who have milked the system, and apply their characteristics, universally, to condemn everyone who is receiving beneftis?

Not exactly the traits of a broad-minded, intellectual: no surprises there, then.

[Hants UK 30 Nov 2007 18:55:16]

Effie
No I dont give advice to anybody,this is only done by control freaks who try to act like Big Brother,telling everyone what to do but dont hope themselves accountable to the same principles. Its like boxers who are put in corners who get punched drunk and dont know when to give in.

[Effie 30 Nov 2007 10:52:58]

In my opinion, Gordon Brown does exhibit traits associated with Aspergers’ syndrome (a form of Autism)
Peter Chuah, Birmingham 30 Nov 2007 08:54:21.

That Peter has got to be an all time low.
I once berated you years ago for your remarks regarding David Blunketts blindness as you said that his disabilty should stop him from being a Secretary of State as it would cost the tax-payers extra to accomodate his disability.
What is it about you and the dis-abled are you developing a pre war Germany Syndrome that they should be shut away?
There is still time in your life young man to Father such a child.
It is the height of ignorance and sheer bad manners to mention such a thing as people no matter what their disabilities are, are all of the same equal value.
You really ought to be ashamed of yopurself especially since you have been well educated, and should not find it too difficult to rise above such things.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 30 Nov 2007 09:47:31]

Annabelle
All Labour supporters are trying their best to throw this mess about donations elsewhere...fat chance! Inquiries cost money, people who run them need to be paid, who pays eventually, the British taxpayer, and they better dig deep because every other day there are new inquiries being conducted into the " goings on" of this Labour government.

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 30 Nov 2007 08:54:21]

In my opinion, Gordon Brown does exhibit traits associated with Aspergers’ syndrome (a form of Autism) , like misinterpreting other people’s gestures and emotions (due to difficulties in taking the perspectives of others), gazing into other people’s face to search for meaning, having obsessional traits, lacking the ability to understand the rules governing social behaviour, kissing and touching a stranger, lacking facial expression, feeling anxious, poor social skills, expressionless face and giving the impression being low in mood.

[Effie 30 Nov 2007 01:47:58]

John Delaney

A few facts to support your postings would not go amiss! But there again like all New Labour cadres on this blog you would never allow the facts to get in the way of a good fairy tale. Why not begin your blogs Once upon a time...

Posted by: The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 12:10:25

This has got to be the joke of the week John and MPSL has still not learned what "Cadre means.
I bet both Labour qand Conservative bloggers are splitting their sides laughing at this one.
You could not make it up if you tried.
The man is the sublime to the ridiculouspersonified to a fine art.
Even his Tory friends have stopped agreeing with him as he has become an embarrassment to all.
What I can never understand is where is this man's pride?
Does he not realise what a complete laughing stock he is making of himself?
I bet their are a few going into tucks at this the latest of many.

[The Morning Post 30 Nov 2007 00:09:51]

And so no answer to my questions about the abolition of the 10p tax rate and 100% increase in council tax from any of the New Labour luvies on this blog. They failed to give me their views on the left wing bias of the BBC either having slagged off Sky on too many occasions to mention for imaginary right wing bias! Typical! Long on rant and rhetoric decidedly weak on substance!

[Craig 29 Nov 2007 23:48:33]

Hants

Brown is continually harping on about Black wednesday,but in fact it was only one day

Do you really understand what happened on Black Wednesday. I saw a colleague in tears on that day as interest rates doubled before his eyes. He lost his home shortly thereafter. Nothing over discs going missing, Northern Rock, scandals over donations or anything else for that matter has resulted in me and I would think you losing one penny. That is the difference if didn't notice.

[Annabelle Thomson 29 Nov 2007 23:24:01]

Dearest Elizabeth, I am a British taxpayer unlike some in your party - Lord Ashcroft and I pay my fair share of taxes and don't reside in an off-shore tax haven like Belize.

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 23:18:42]

Hants UK
You are way off track about Black Wednesday, it happened under the last Tory PM John Major. Remember him? The Major years mired by real heavy-duty sleaze, brown envelopes, bungs and cash-for-questions. But I wouldn't expect you to remember the atrocious state the Tories left our economy and vital public services in. There is a condition called selective amnesia, which seems to affect rather a lot of NuCon bloggers on here!

[Bruce Hulmes / England 29 Nov 2007 21:27:05]

Carol Ann.
The poorer are worse of now then ever, why are children failing at school, well if a few more knew who their fathers were that might help.
If the pay of the lowset workers was not being held down by this governments important of cheap labour that would help.
And the best way to get people of benefits is to stop most of them getting benefits.
Why there are people out there hwo are on incapacity benefits who say they can't work but they contribute to this blog all day and everyday, some even help out in youth clubs. But work eludes them why Carol.
Reported today over 23.000 people mostly the elderly died of cold last year, hows that for your caring government and that was with a mild winter.
No people like you will not be happy until you have dragged us all down to level, which is the basic idea behind socialism if you never knew.

[Victor, NW Kent 29 Nov 2007 18:39:10]

Carol-Ann

Here is something you may be able to answer without your usual cut-and-paste name calling method.

If Labour is such a wonderful thing for the working-class [whatever that means] - why are the most firmly pro-Labour constituencies always the ones with the poorest schools, the worst slums, the highest unemployment, the most aggressive street gangs, the greatest drug problems and the highest crime statistics?

Surely, after the Attlee, Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown regimes all those ills should have been cured. You know, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield, Birmingham, East London, Nottingham.

The real truth is that you have been conned for decades in voting for a bunch of apparatchiks who have no real interest in you once they have your vote.

So, whilst you boast that Labour "owns" the North of England , your boast is true -your vote is delivered faithfully so that they can retire on large pensions, sometimes multiple pensions to a life of comfort on quangos and in the House of Lords. They may start off as your neighbours but they end up as neighbours of the wealthy sheikhs, the landed aristocracy.

They know that however impossibly badly they perform a third of the electorate is programmed from birth to vote Labour. They can always pick up a few extra percentages by making promises on which they will never deliver.

So whilst a blogger here boasts about how there are no Tory MPs in Manchester I will tell you that the city has the highest youth unemployment rate in the country.

Whilst Labour and the Lib-Dems rattle on about how they control Liverpool,it is feral street gangs who control it and the police there regard some areas as no-go zones for law enforcement.

Think on that and tell me how things really are for the "working" and non-working classes and why they never get a step forward. I ask because I don't know. I was brought up in council houses but have never had one as an adult, have never worked for the government in any form, have never been out of work so I cannot understand the motivations of voters whose lives are so miserable just voting for more of the same.

[Effie 29 Nov 2007 18:35:22]

Brown is continually harping on about Black wednesday,but in fact it was only one day. Maggie tackled it and turned it around, and when the Tories left power there was a surplus on the balance sheet.
Hants UK 29 Nov 2007 16:44:28

What is it about Tories that they can never get a simple fact like when Margaret Thatcher got stabbed in the back by her own Party?
The date was “22nd” November 1990
The ERM debacle AKA “Black Wednesday” 16 September 1992

Black Wednesday, as 16 September 1992 came to be known, provided one of the most memorable failures of post-war British economic policy.
It was the defining failure of John Major's government;
Prime Minister John Major and Chancellor Norman Lamont raised interest rates during the day from 10% to 12% to 15% and authorised the spending of billions of pounds in a doomed effort to keep the pound within the range allowed by ERM.
The UK's two year membership of ERM was suspended and the second interest rate reversed. The UK never rejoined the ERM.

Tell me Hants UK :
Did you give advice to Gideon Osborne about the NON-DOMS?

[Craig 29 Nov 2007 18:20:02]

Carol Ann

But then, it was the Tories in charge.... and eveyone had to wait forever for things to happen,,,, operations, health care.....I could go on

You should go on. The Tories talk about wasting money. I reme,ber 3.5 million lost soles on the dole. Absolutely disgraceful and they all had to be paid for.

[Hants UK 29 Nov 2007 16:44:28]

Brown is continually harping on about Black wednesday,but in fact it was only one day. Maggie tackled it and turned it around, and when the Tories left power there was a surplus on the balance sheet.Has anybody checked the balance sheet now to see how it reads, deficit big time off again spending on the never never , I dont know why Carol Ann goes on about one man and his tax, She reminds me of a record that stuck or a chip on her shoulder .... Maybe she is a tory in disguise, but in awe of the Gospel according to Gordon Brown...Poor girl.. or maybe she is helping him with his vision .. pure stealth of course. Maybe if the Goverment tackled the immigration problem and stop the country leaking and subsiding other countries people we might have money to distribute to our poor she keeps on about. Charity begins at home and especially when it come to the old pensioners who indirectly paying the penalty of the current policies.There is no difference in managing a Company or Goverment,except bad Company manangement spells diaster,bad Government management it seems is rewarded

[carol-ann liverpool 29 Nov 2007 16:28:01]

Bruce

Labour has done more to help the genuine poor people who have been brought out of abject poverty that the Tories left them in.
They are much better off under Labour than Tories

Actually,Bruce,up here we have.... because of Labour policy, been running the trials for projects to get people back to work which have helped many many people with training and support, help with basic skills etc

They are so good that people are actually keen to get on these projects where they are getting NVQs that will give them less chance in the future of being unemployed.

Labour has solved the problem which so mitigated in the past against them coming offf benefits - letting them claim some benefits for a couple of weeks until all their salary and tax credits etc are sorted.
The length of time you had to wait between having your benefits stopped and having your salary and family credit or whatever, was so long... months in some cases.... it discouraged people from applying for jobs
But then, it was the Tories in charge.... and eveyone had to wait forever for things to happen,,,, operations, health care.....I could go on

[carol-ann liverpool 29 Nov 2007 16:16:08]

Morning Post

No lessons from anyone about council tax...just remember how local authority funding got into a total mess after the er, POLL TAX
I know a few people who have been taken out of abject poverty with tax credits and help into work by Labour Policies

Tories cocked-up the Incapacity Benefit/unemployment benefit balance to reduce unemployment figures and ruined local authority services with the Poll Tax

Poll Tax...wonder whose great idea that was?

[carol-ann liverpool 29 Nov 2007 16:09:02]

Boys... boys...so many questions.....lol......
Careful with the old tickers chaps..

When we have a full explanation of Lord Cashcroft's tax affairs - then we will answer your questions!

Now that there are suspicions
according to a respected journalist,,, that Lord Cashcroft has been funding this deliberate 'hate' campaign against The Prime Minister, Gordon Brown.... I would advise caution when proceeding .. so keep your eyes on the road in case you hit an unexpected obstacle...LOL

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 15:50:25]

In response to TMP and Victor, all I can say that over the forthcoming weeks and months, I can predict large-scale sleaze hitting the Conservatives where it seriously hurts. From casual enquiries, you would be spoilt for choice in the sheer 'wealth' of information available which concern dubious sources and practices of front organisations; that's in addition to the Ashcroft money of course!

[Hants UK 29 Nov 2007 15:49:01]

stalin did not care about the poor people he just ground them down into slaves or executed them.Cromwell did in the 1600. Except the Government is doing it by stealth tax starve the poor out with the increase as so aptly described by The morning Post. If only the Blind could see or have a vision

[The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 15:44:40]

Victor

Union donations to New Labour topped 12 million last year. The cash did not come without strings though. No less than sixty demands accompanied it from ensuring the legal protection of striking workers to commitments on world debt relief and safeguards on electorial reform. Can you imagine the reaction from New Labour if Lord Ashcrofts donations to the Tory Party came with sixty strings attached? Futhermore whilst the unions 12 million pound donation made its way to New Labour, they sent back 10 million pounds of taxpayers money (our money) to the unions under the guise of a Modernisation Fund. Amongst other things, the unions used this money (our money) to modernise the train drivers union website and cement relations with Polish trade unionists! I was never asked if i wished to donate the tax i paid to the UK government to the Trade Unions were you?

[Bruce Hulmes / England 29 Nov 2007 15:34:00]

Carol Ann.
Take it from me that there are as many computers and lap tops in houses, where the occupants are on benefits as their are in any should we say homes where people get of their backsides and work.
I know the above from experience, contact someone who works for or as dealings with any housing association and they will put you right.
Your posts are showing signs of the bunker mentality, you should stop being bitter and blaming your own short comings on others, who's fault is it you have financial problems, after Labour have ben in power for ten years, well your own!!and according to this weeks repoprt you are not on your own at least 10 million others are in your boat. Labours credit fueled economy is on the brink of going pear shape but you are in denial.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 29 Nov 2007 15:33:43]

Annabelle
If you are a British taxpayer this inquiry is going to cost you...big time!

[The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 15:10:15]

Carol Ann

So if you really do care about poor people let me ask you once again for your comments on Gordons abolition of the 10p income tax rate which hit the low paid and by definition poor people very hard indeed and the doubling of council tax during the last ten years, which totally ignores peoples ability to pay, failing to distinguish between millionaires and very poor people!

[Patricia 29 Nov 2007 15:04:35]

Well, Effie if the Liberal spokesman said I was wrong then it must be fact mustn't it?.

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 15:00:05]

Carol-Ann Liverpool

Wouldn't have thought that poor people getting hold of laptops and ipods was a problem where you live......

[Annabelle Thomson 29 Nov 2007 14:58:41]

Oh dear, Elizabeth surely you're not trying to pin this on the Government - whatever next.. maybe the weather??!!!

[Dave Blackburn 29 Nov 2007 14:40:16]

Northern Housewife and Bruce

It could also mean that more Tories have laptops and Ipods
................
Whereas the really poor people, which we, unlike the Eaton Toffs, care about - haven't got the means to get on here...
Posted by: carol-ann liverpool 29 Nov 2007 14:11:56

Oh come on!!! PC World will do instant credit...Never heard of Internet Cafes?...
Pls don't pap on about Labour being the party for the poor! Saying that though, you could have a point. I've NEVER been so worse off as I am now!So perhaps they ARE the party for the poor!!

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 29 Nov 2007 14:20:48]

They have "been" and gone and done it again.......yet another of the dreaded inquiries has been launched, this time letting the criminals off scot( pardon the pun) free!

[carol-ann liverpool 29 Nov 2007 14:11:56]

Northern Housewife and Bruce

It could also mean that more Tories have laptops and Ipods

In the case of the Young Cons, maybe funded by Cammer's luncheon clubs... or the, alleged, tax benefits of a certain Lord?

Whereas the really poor people, which we, unlike the Eaton Toffs, care about - haven't got the means to get on here...

[Hants UK 29 Nov 2007 13:53:14]

animal farm that was old cecil,mr mellors and company you know that rude film

Posted by: John Delaney 29 Nov 2007 12:47:16

Let me check history, but if I recall the tories got rid of them once the crossed the line. Should Labour likewise also clear out the offenders or are they above the law

[Victor, NW Kent 29 Nov 2007 13:10:10]

Mike Simpson - I am very happy for all donations over £1000 to be investigated provided that the investigations are not done by henchmen of Sir Ian Blair or any other Labour placemen.

Rather than filling the pockets of politicians with more tax money [for taxpayer sponsorship of election funds] let us give the Electoral Commission teeth and a sufficient force of trained investigators.

That will occupy the rest of the time until Labour finally gets thrown out.

At the same time there are perfectly legal donations that parties should not accept, like the £5000 given by a Blackpool convicted rapist, who was then invited to a big-wigs function.

The Commission should also investigate in detail the validity of every member contribution within the unions - did that member specifically state that he/she wished the deduction to be paid to Labour? Not all union members are Labour supporters.

[London, London 29 Nov 2007 12:47:37]

Effie,

Your wrong, as was Stephen "Rent a Quote" Pound last night.

[John Delaney 29 Nov 2007 12:47:16]

Hants UK

animal farm that was old cecil,mr mellors and company you know that rude film

[The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 12:44:21]

Mike

Criminal investigations dont just happen because you want them to! Thats called 'fishing' in legal terminology! Do you have any proof which might lead the Police to consider launching a criminal investigation? If so share it with us!

[Hants UK 29 Nov 2007 12:29:11]

Whilst helping to tidy up and clearing out my childrens rooms the other day I came across some books with Interesting titles, One in particular was called Animal Farm and it reminded me of New Labour!!!! what ever that stands for ???. Revolt from what??? lead by what and by who??
Using the old adage DO as I say dont do as we do...is this a sign of the times.

[Brian Christley. Abergele 29 Nov 2007 12:20:40]

Vince Cable proved that humour is even mightier than the pen, the sword and the clunking fist.

[Northernhousewife 29 Nov 2007 12:19:00]

Robert -re:Questioning Brown's integrity??

Should we ignore the obvious hypocracy of this? Blair and Brown did it in Opposition and continued the policy in Government for many years - Blair has now said he regrets it as it was not a true reflection of the Tories. Brown has been silent on the subject.

More relevantly....
There is NO evidence that Brown took a dodgey donation, only that he had bad judgement in trusting those close to him, that he actually appointed. Furthermore, he can be charged with being out of touch and not in control when those close had varying degrees of knowledge but he seems oblivious. Incompetence? Yes. Flawed intergrity? Possibly not.
Until you consider the selection of the "independent" investigative panel. It is tainted by its members close association and/or MEMBERSHIP of the Labour Party and its previous Governments and includes people who should be SUBJECT to this enquiry. Involving your mates who have an clear conflict of interest in this matter leads to the obvious charge that the PM is trying to lessen the impact of what is a criminal matter on his party and collegues, and in so doing, protect himself. This is still a matter of integrity.

Or is he just stupid?
Take your pick.

[The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 12:10:25]

John Delaney

A few facts to support your postings would not go amiss! But there again like all New Labour cadres on this blog you would never allow the facts to get in the way of a good fairy tale. Why not begin your blogs Once upon a time...

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 12:09:39]

John

Of course I can take the moral high ground. I am not a Labour supporter...that was my point.

I see the NuLab bloggers have clocked in then....what was it ...a union meeting that made you late...LOL

[Effie 29 Nov 2007 12:08:23]

The Labour party disagreed and the Conservatives walked away from the discussion.

Posted by: Patricia 29 Nov 2007 11:47:37

Then you heard wrong as was confirmed last night by the Liberal on the programme.
Only Ann McIntosh refuted it and she was not there.
But hey why allow the facts to get in the way?

[London, London 29 Nov 2007 12:06:05]

Lord Ashcroft is not giving third party donations. Have you any evidence that the Tories have recieved third party donations?

No - because only Labour has broken the law in this regard.

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 11:58:31]

Morning Post, So I take it from your posting that you would be against a police investigation into possible criminality and illegal donations to the Conservatives?

If you feel that CCO have nothing to fear, as you imply, why are you holding out and resisting an independent police investigation into this and other sources of funding, i.e. agent, industrial clubs/front organisations & third-parties?

[John Delaney 29 Nov 2007 11:50:12]

Victor, NW Kent

see you have been on google again

[Patricia 29 Nov 2007 11:47:37]

It is my understanding, but I have made no great study of the subject so I could be wrong, that the Conservatives were quite happy to put a cap on all donations but insisted that the rule apply to trade union donations also. The Labour party disagreed and the Conservatives walked away from the discussion.

[London, London 29 Nov 2007 11:36:32]

Effie,

Are you calling Sir Alistair Graham a liar as he said that it was the labour parties intransigence over union funding that caused the tories to walk away. He was talking about the meeting he was having with Hayden Philips when the subject came up and he could not believe the double standards of Jack Straw.

But hey, the labour party has broken the law and its somehow everyone else fault. You really must do better.

[carol-ann liverpool 29 Nov 2007 11:27:34]

EFFIE

Why is it that the Con-Man

Can receive third-party donations when Labour can't?

Could it be that they are crafty in the way they stay within the letter of the law, if not the spirit .....?

[Victor, NW Kent 29 Nov 2007 11:26:27]

If Ashcroft's donations were illegal you could guarantee that Labour, which supposedly controls all arms of government would have discovered and published the fact. Remember they control HMRC and any sort of information can be had from that body by simply sending a email. Of course there would be an Iranian, a Israeli and an Egyptian to fall under the same scope of enquiry but they are all Labour donors.

The LibDems, on the other hand, had £2.4 million from a non-resident who is a convicted criminal.

More than just a few high-ups in Labour are directly implicated in the Abrahams affair. So far, the party Treasurer, responsible for all the party's funds says he knows nothing about it. It is hard to see why he holds that post if he has no knowledge of the party's ongoing financial affairs.

The party's leader also knows nothing about it. Yet up to 2003 at least 32 Labour donors of £100,000 or more had been made Peers or Knighted. Two of those were also made Ministers. That was during the period when Gordon Brown was Blair's election supremo.

I have little doubt that the Conservatives failed to arive at a pact with the others over taxpayer funding of elections since the issue of Trade Union donations was never open to discussion. I would applaud them for that and the simple reason that the taxpayer already supports all of the politicians and their huge entourages. Also, if Labour has 27% of the vote I do not want 27P of my additional taxation to go to them - I would want it all to go to the party of my choice. That would be inconvenient for Labour as, in general, their supporters pay far less tax than do Conservative and LibDem supporters.

[The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 11:11:56]

Why on earth should the police investigate Tory party donors? There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that any have contributed illegally like David Martin Abrahams! The New Labour cadres on this thread will be demanding the resignation of the Tory party secretary next in sympathy with his counterpart in New Labour! Yet another smoke screen! Yet more red herrings! Reality check ok! It was NEW LABOUR who were caught red handed accepting illegal donations. Of course the Police should investigate that party and its illegal donors. It has however nothing whatsoever to do with the Tory Party, Liberal Democrats or the Salvation Army for that matter! Your childish diversionary tactics will not work!

[John Delaney 29 Nov 2007 11:09:35]

Effie

I rememver this a while back the tories backed out the talks and tried to blame everybody else surprise surprise does this have something to do with ashcrofts funding I wonder

[John Delaney 29 Nov 2007 11:02:48]

Philip, Bristol

Morale high ground thats cheap coming from you you do that when you can't get your own way

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 11:00:43]

Effie - Excellent point and very well made. You have hit the proverbial bulls-eye on this. Unfortunately, we can't expect NuCon bloggers to recognise the truth of the situation, even when it's staring them in the face.

Really enjoyed Adam's PMQ programme last night, Stephen Pound MP was brilliant, the Lib Dem guy was pretty good too I thought but I wasn't sure what planet Tory Anne McIntosh was on??! The term space cadet springs to mind.

[Effie 29 Nov 2007 10:45:27]

I would welcome a police investigation into the Abrahams affair and this should be extended to an examination into all parties accounts, and with particular regard to donations made by agents, industrial clubs/organisations & third-parties.
Posted by: Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 10:03:11

Yes Mike, and listening to Adam last night on TV, it came to everybody's attention that the Tory Party withdrew from talks about the funding of these Party's.
It appears that as Labour does with the trade union's money in allowing everybody to opt out of subscribing to the Labour Party's funds.
When both the Liberals and Labour said that the same criteria should apply to the businessess who donated to the Tory party, and that the Tories would have to consult their share-holders first if they wished a donation to be made to the Tory's.
The Tories took their toys away and walked out in the huff.
Then the blasted cheek of it all, Ann McIntosh the Tory on the panel said otherwise until the LIberal guest said it was correct as he was there at the time serving on the selelct committee, she was not.
Like most Tories on this blog she did not have the good grace to apologise for her very public error.
Still what is new about that?

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 10:44:16]

You have to love it when Mike & Co get "frit".

They then resort to trying to take the moral high ground. I have more chance of going to the moon than of a NuLab blogger being able to take the moral high ground.

Needs must Mike...anyway that is legal is all right by me..priority is to get this bunch of losers off of our collective backs not look for red herrings to distract Yates of the Yard from his righful prey...

Election anyone??

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 10:03:11]

Your comments are very immature Phillip, and I thought even you would have realised that the Cash for Honours Inquiry - which also focused on Tory funding - yielded "no smoking guns", though I have to say, undoubtedly, there were plenty of "damp squibs".

It is in everyone's interest that funding of political parties is cleaned up, that includes the very dubious financial aspects of the Ashcroft money which currently bankrolls the Con Party. Do you seriously consider that this isn't a major piece of sleaze just waiting to come out Phillip?

I would welcome a police investigation into the Abrahams affair and this should be extended to an examination into all parties accounts, and with particular regard to donations made by agents, industrial clubs/organisations & third-parties.

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 09:55:33]

Mike said

"There are many more questions on the whole Ashcroft affair and I would like an immediate and thorough investigation into the whole sordid business of the Ashcroft Money. "

And I would like a Bentley Continental Mike but unfortunately I can't have one.

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 09:52:50]

Mike and all others in fear.

I really don't care how we get this shower of useless and corrupt party out of power. As long as it’s a tad more legal and above board than this mob. Shouldn’t be hard.

I find it the height of hypocrisy for any Bottler supporter to talk about ethics. Rather like a burger bar promoting a healthy lifestyle.

I refer my honourable friend to the answer I gave earlier….ain’t life a ..LOL

[Philip. Bristol 29 Nov 2007 09:47:18]

Anne

Can I say there is a hint pf paranoia in your post. As a Tory blogger I often get 50% of my posts cut. especially when I call the PM a..........

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 09:46:04]

JH, London - I contemplated whether it was worth my time responding to your typically childish and intemperate NUCon remarks but thought that you shouldn't get away with your illogical comment and I quote "I have said enough about Ashcroft. His business delaings are entirely legal and his donations are appropriately declared."

There are many more questions on the whole Ashcroft affair and I would like an immediate and thorough investigation into the whole sordid business of the Ashcroft Money. The Conservatives desire to continue to refuse to comment on Lord Ashcroft's tax position can mean only one thing; that he is still non-resident and is still not paying taxes in this country.

This is despite an undertaking made by the then Tory Leader, WIlliam Hague. If Lord Ashcroft does not pay the tax he promised to, and openness and transparency continues not to be practised in CCO, then he (Lord Ashcroft) has broken the pledge that was made when appointed to the House of Lords. Now, I wonder how this one will run....

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 09:40:21]

John

I don't. In this country you don't have to prove you are innocent.

If someone comes up with some proof I will condem him. Ther are plenty of Kevin Maguires trying to dig something up...so it may happen. Up until then I will gloat that the Tories have legal money and NuLab (by Bottler's own admission at PMQs) has illegal money.

Like I said......ain't life a ..... John....

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 09:33:17]

I see that, according to a well known political blogger, the Labour party uses a program called Raiser's Edge to keep track of all its donor data.

Wonder if Yates of the Yard can get there before they delete the lot?

Answers on a post card to: Mr Bottler Bean c/o 10 Downing St, London. Don't try phoning, you will be charged a huge sum and your vote will not count!

[Mike Simpson 29 Nov 2007 09:29:41]

In response to Phillip, Bristol - interesting view you have about and I quote "I hope Ashcroft doesn't go away. He is quite legally flooding money into the marginals to help decimate Labour at the next election."

Firstly, you are condoning someone whose very own tax status is subject to considerable fiscal and political scrutiny, at the current time, and CCO have been highly secretive and shifty about this entire matter. Are you aware that there are a number of FoI requests outstanding at the current time, the results of which I am sure will prove very, interesting indeed about Lord Ashcroft and his bankrolling of the Tories in marginal seats?

Obviously, by your reference you wouldn't support a cleaning up of political party funding, so there you have it a typical view of a NUCon supporter who haven't changed from the days of major sleaze - a.k.a The Tory Years.

[The Morning Mail 29 Nov 2007 09:28:09]

In response to Philip and his backing of the man who likes the Tory Party so much he bought the Party - Lord Aschcroft.

I hope the Government brings in legislation to bring fairness to Party funding. I do think the majority of fair minded people will be disgusted at the thought of a multi millionaire non dom who is bankrolling candidated and gaining an unfair Party advantage in marginal seats.

Just to remind fellow bloggers, Lord Ashcroft's peerage, initially blocked by a scrutiny committee, was approved after he promised to bring his tax affairs "onshore"

We await news on this from Lord A and Cammers. Both parties have not been forthcoming on this issue.

[Anne 29 Nov 2007 09:23:44]

It's really amazing this Sky forum.
I've seen references to fuzzie wuzzies, cruel remarks about starving black children, the PM called a Stalinist control freak with trembling hands, weird and no integrity, Mr. Bean and Frank Spencer.
In the same spirit, a couple of days ago I likened Cameron to a pointy faced wizard with rubbish policies that magically disappeared in a puff of smoke when scrutinised - but guess what - no show here.
It's OK to attack the PM mercilessly - but not Cammers.

[Bill, Middle England 29 Nov 2007 09:13:38]

Recent events prove the nonsense of Govts running everything.

Perhaps the best example this week was actually in education.

The cornerstone of 1997 success was "Education, education, education". Yet, in England, literacy standards have fallen sharply.

Says it all about New Lab. Record spending and record waste!

[John Delaney 29 Nov 2007 09:12:26]

Philip, Bristol

You amaze me you are ok at attacking other people but when they attack you back you dont like it,how sure are you that ashcroft money is safe come on give us the answer
please

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 29 Nov 2007 09:06:05]

James Dexter South Wales

James you have a really good grasp of the current situation in the Labour party. Possibly his own party will tear him apart before the polls do the job!

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 29 Nov 2007 09:02:50]

Metamorphosis from being Stalin like to Mr. Bean like is relatively easy for Gordon Brown, though a bit painful. 'Mr. Bean' displays autistic traits like weird behaviour, repeated mumbling, unable to relate to people or relate it from other’s perspectives, etc. This is a good analogy and description by Vince Cable of the situation with Gordon Brown.

[Robert, Scotland 29 Nov 2007 08:54:49]

David Cameron was right to question the Prime Ministers competence yesterday but wrong to question his integrity. This arrangement to hide where money was coming from was in place before Gordon took over as Labour Party Leader and its origin as a way of doing business has strong leads to the previous Prime Ministers stronghold, that is; North-East of England constituences.
Gordon as has been said is a man who likes to be in control to know everything that is going on. From experience I know this to be impossible unless you have very good communication contacts through every part of your area of responsibility. This is not Gordon's style of management he prefers the "inner circle" and trusts they will tell him everything that is happening.This did not work for him when he was Chancellor, no-one from the "inner circle told him HMR was a shambles almost since the day he foisted Child Credits on it and because of this he was dismissive of any outside report suggesting otherwise,thus he blundered on to create HMRC.
So Gordon in his Tower will continue to be ignorant of lots of wrong doing in Government and in the Labour Party people who do not like his "inner Circle" will hide things from them and they in their ignorance will continue to advise Gordon that everything in the garden is rosy. So not a dishonest man just a poor Manager.

[Danny 29 Nov 2007 08:50:17]

Here is what the House of Lords said about Fundraising when invesitgating the Cash for Peerages events:
The commission will wish to be aware of any donations - both in money or in kind - to political parties that were declarable to the Electoral Commission under the terms of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendum Act 2000... the Commission will also want to be informed of any personal financial relationship between you and a senior member of a political party.
This was written following the Act passed in 2000 which is quite specific, as it would be, when Labour passes laws telling people what to do.
Labour have a lot of good ideas, but it seems in this area, it's one law for everyone ele other than them.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 29 Nov 2007 08:41:07]

Craig
How is it possible for Mr Brown to be dignified in the Commons when he is the laughing stock of the whole house, including his own front bench! Have you forgotten Craig that there is freedom of speech in Britain, Mr Cable was speaking his mind and probably what was on everyone elses mind. Speak as you find!

[Philip, Bristol 29 Nov 2007 08:10:20]

Mike

I hope Ashcroft doesn't go away. He is quite legally flooding money into the marginals to help decimate Labour at the next election.

Bet you wish you had some legal money eh??...LOL

Ain't life a ........

[Dave, Northants 29 Nov 2007 08:04:58]

I'd rather have Stalin or Bean as PM rather than this fool we've been lumped with!

[T. England 29 Nov 2007 07:50:47]

I have always thought that Brown looks like a member of the Adams family because he is so creepy looking.
In fact many of the Labour front bench wouldn't look out of place in an Adams family plot!

The Labour party! More like the creep show!

[The Morning Post 29 Nov 2007 07:21:44]

My goodness me you can almost smell the fear eminating from the resident New Labour proletariat on this blog! Their new messiah Gordon Brown is in deep deep poo poo and appears pretty clueless as to how to extract himself! The military are up in arms over funding or rather the lack of! The civil service down in the dumps having lost 25 million welfare claimants personal details and to cap it all his party secretary has fallen on his sword having been caught red handed accepted illegal third party donations in contravention of the law! Seems like it cannot get much worse for Gordon or can it? The Police must be called in and soon to conduct an 'independant inquiry' into New Labours illegal donation scam free from any party political interference or bias! What they will find we dont yet know but its pretty certain that a number of other senior government officials were aware of this illegal donation scam. An independant Police inquiry will examine who knew what and when. They will of course have a great deal of explaining to do. And of course there is the question of a certain planning application in Durham City which was originally declined due to government departmental objections, which were subsequently withdrawn! Was this after payment of the last illegal donation made by David Martin Abrahams one wonders! Again this will be for the Police to assertain! There is certainly a strong whiff of fear in the air today and rightly so. The last few weeks have been nothing short of a nightmare for Gordon Brown and New Labour. Problem is the next few might welll be even worse!

[James Dexter South Wales 28 Nov 2007 22:01:24]

AD Charles give me a break...

Gordon Brown and the flooding and Glasgow attacks? Bangladesh... now that's flooding. Gas canisters in a car ram raided into an airport? Foot and mouth disease (released by the government lab btw)...

Me I thought it was the emergency services that dealt with each crisis - didn't see Gordon doing a lot. And as for his "success" as chancellor ask people here in South Wales (real Labour folk not PR men and spivs) about their pensions after Gordon finished. And the gold sold at it's lowest level in years oh and PFI and so on. This nail biting back stabbing buffoon needs to go as soon as possible and either let a real Labour leader take over (one who actually cares about weaker people in society) or let a better party in. Serves Labour right for the way they have treated their core voters all this years. And to go back back to 1992 in a comment... man he's running on empty. I also know a couple of Labour councillors round here and believe me they are already looking to their futures as one said "With this fool in charge we have no chance of keeping our jobs next election - Westminster will poison us all... why did we ever let Tony go?" Says it all really.

[Northernhousewife 28 Nov 2007 21:33:20]

carol-ann,
The opinion polls suggest that there are many more Tories. Full Stop.
This site is very representative then.

[Bruce Hulmes / England 28 Nov 2007 21:21:35]

Carol Ann.
Could it be that there are more Tory bloggers on this site, because there are more Tory voters(for which I am not)the Tories actually recieved the largest vote in England in the past two elections. But with us living in a democrocy similar to the USA, remember the Florida vote?. The second best wins.

[STUART Southampton 28 Nov 2007 20:54:46]

PM Brown the unelected PM is not fit to run a country and vince cable likening him to Mr bean i would say the PM is more like frank spencer only frank was honest with his stupidity there are more people who new than didn't im sure, i think David Cameron came out tops today.Brown open and transparent yeah like a muddy pond, .A general election should happen now and lets see what the public really think if not then there should be some resignation starting with Hariet Harman.

[Maurice - Northumberland 28 Nov 2007 20:52:34]

They are proud to introduce a law to cover party funding.
Yet again, law is not applicable to them!

As for State Funding - no way, if a party cannot get enough financial support from the donors, then the public doesn't want them!

[Maurice - Northumberland 28 Nov 2007 20:49:37]

What a joke, The Labour Party cannot even handle their Party Accounts honestly, and there they are with the keys to the National Treasury!

They simply cannot handle numbers!

[steve, hants 28 Nov 2007 20:45:14]

Methinks the Nu-Labourites doth protest too much!

Defending the indefensible!

[Jennifer Thatcher Bath Somerset. 28 Nov 2007 20:34:09]

Unfortunately, we are not the only ones who notice what is going on under this PM. The Sudan would not be treating the teacher with such ferocity if it hadn't noticed the calibre of our PM and , God help us, Foreign Sec. It isn't as funny when seen from a non-partisan stance.

[Craig Hants 28 Nov 2007 19:41:37]

eh eh eh eh MrBROON ,Vince Cable was brilliant,Brown is Bean in charge of the country. Rather have Rowan Atkinson in charge Brown is pathetic.

[Barry UK 28 Nov 2007 19:24:09]

I was no supporter of the corrupt Major gang that was the tory party.
But this sorry shower that are in power now knock that regime into the distance, the one thing I am very sure of is that at the next general election the last party that I will vote for is Labour.
Liar Bliar and robber Brown have seen to that!

[Craig 28 Nov 2007 19:06:01]

Morning Mail

Wait a minute Giddy Osborne looks and sounds like Mr Bean whilst Vince Cable looks like a middle class Wurzle Gummidge.

You are so right and Cameron/Cable get away with saying it. Can you imagine what would happen if Brown came out and returned the compliment in kind. The gutter press would kill him. It is all one-sided coverage. Cameron and Cable need to be taken to task. Andrew Neil openly talks of his fondness for Cable his former tutor at University and we have to trust him to treat all politicians fairly. It is a joke!! By the way, your remarks re Osborne are spot on. I can say it but politicians shouldn't in parliament or we might as well close the place down.

[Rae 28 Nov 2007 19:01:04]

What about Cameron?. He gets absolutely no where with 5 questions and I said to friends - Watch this here come the insults! Out it came 'Even labour MP's think he is a control freak' that despite many cabinet ministers talking about more open cabinet Govt under Brown. He is able to say whatever he likes even though it is totally unsubstantiated. The man is a bufoon and not fit to lead this country. The Tories are trying hard tpo stick discs and donors on Brown. Neither is his fault an they know it. This nonsense will eventually pass and long term policies will count. Cameron has no policies!!

[Joe George, Isle of Wight 28 Nov 2007 18:58:44]

Have we got the most dysfuntional, self-centred, dishonest and weakest Government in the "Civilised World". Which other Governments are considered as unprofessional as ours.

[Craig 28 Nov 2007 18:55:50]

"This House has noted the Prime Minister's remarkable transformation from Stalin to Mr Bean in the past few weeks.

PMQ's is getting out of hand. Cameron is able to blast Brown for things like being a 'control freak'despite Cabinet ministers queueing up to deny this in recent weeks. Is this really temporate language that you would expect from parliament. My god, Brown was lambasted a few weeks for hinting that Cameron might be a liar. As for Cable, is name calling now acceptable. If Brown acted in such an infantile manner, he would be lambasted. What happens about it!! Nothing!! Parliamentary standards are certainly falling. Why don't the Tories and Lib dems just start swearing next - It doesn't seem to matter. Only Brown left with his dignity intact in my view.

[Ian, Lancashire 28 Nov 2007 18:46:06]

If he gets a teddy bear like Mr. Bean has then Gordon had better be very careful about what name he decides to call it. Don't want to upset the Saudis do we old chap.

[Khalid 28 Nov 2007 18:28:22]

I must give way to "Mr Bean" as a representative of the "Queen".

[Purps, Chelmsford 28 Nov 2007 18:14:17]

155 days of disaster and now the Fuzzie Wuzzies in Khartoum think they can take a weak albion on.

This shaggy Brown > it wasn't me< has to go and please take all the dodgy I'm alright jack trade unionistas with you.

This donation escapade is Money Laundering pure and simple. I cannot wait for the US to ask for the Labour Party Grandees including Shaggy Brown to be extradited to the US for trial.
If extradition was good for the Natwest three, then Shaggy Brown, Harriet Harman and Peter Watt should be sent to the US for trial.

P.S. The OAP of the Lib Dem was great and won PMQ today.

[carol-ann liverpool 28 Nov 2007 18:09:14]

Iain

Another Old Etonian, maybe?

What is ruining this country is a bunch of Old Etonians who think this is all a joke and do not seem to understand the serious of what they are doing.

What has happened is beyond awful, no one is arguing against that.
But what Cammers and Co and Cable and Co are doing is no better!
The do not have the credentials to lead the country when they have used the tactics of the former USSR - control of the press, the military, and a now, what seems like a very dubious supporter of the Labour Party.
If he supports the Labour Party, why does he keep giving the press stuff which they are using to bring down the Labour Party?
There is more than a whiff of rat pee, in this. Let us wait until the dust has settled.
There is more to this than meets the eye.

[JH - London 28 Nov 2007 17:55:47]

Mike S, if your going to insult me please come up with something original rather than just using my own words. If you like I am happy to give you some ideas or even write your posts for you and then they might make more sense. They would certainly be more articulate.

I have said enough about Ashcroft. His business delaings are entirely legal and his donations are appropriately declared. Abrhams donations entirely illegal and spun and hidden by Brown-Nosers.

What is the problem. I salute him if he has managed to keep some of his money away from the grubby Brown. I would like to know how he does it.

[Effie 28 Nov 2007 17:54:44]

it was a former very senior Civil Servant that originally compared Brown to Stalin from when he was at the Treasury Iain, Manchester 28 Nov 2007 17:10:33

Yes lad, you are correct and Blair was at the dispatch box at the time.
I will repeat the answer Blair gave to Cameron.
This chancellor has been the most successful chancellor for years and it is him who is running the treasury.
In tory times it was the mandarins who ran the teasury leading to 4 million unemployed, businessess going under hand over fist, houses re-possessed and a bank rate at 15%.
Thank you for allowing me to remind all the Tories about that episode in the past.
Well done lad, you let me get that one in that is what happend when you lead with the chin!!

[JH - London 28 Nov 2007 17:49:32]

Effie, by referring to a leader with very little up top you can only be referring to McSporran. So in that case, my goodness I am far from proud that such an imbecile is our PM. My politics are centre right so I did not approve of much that he did but I was proud to have Tony Blair representing our country across the world. I am thoroughly embarassed by this gurning, stuttering, nail bitten wreck of a man you saw spinning such nonsense today.

Of course David C is angry, he is furious and impotent with rage that he has so many good ideas for the country and he is going to have to wait for 2 and a half years before the party can get rid of this bunch of polytechnic social science teachers.

I am also appalled that you seem to be shooting the messenger (e.g. media) for McBroons incompetence, lies and sleaze.

NO CONSPIRACY BROWN NOSERS -ITS JUST GORDON!

[Mike Simpson 28 Nov 2007 17:35:40]

JH, London you are so seriously deluded if you feel that Labour supportive bloggers don't have a sense of humour or want to somehow gag the media.

You are missing the point somewhat and, perhaps if you were objective, which as can be seen by your meaningless ramblings, you are clearly not; you would realise that the scandals of party funding affects all parties. Yes, that's right particularly your party - the Conservatives who have a whole series of questions to answer on shadow and third-party donations, not to mention the very serious and quite scandalous Lord Ashcroft issue which, sadly for the Cons, will not go away.

[carol-ann liverpool 28 Nov 2007 17:18:00]

JH

There are many more Tory supporter's on here - so it is a constant uphill struggle
Not surprising to see a lot of 'NuCon supporters' on here this week.
Now that Cammers is on high ground again. How Fickle they are!
Not surprising, really, that they want to buddy up to someone like Cammers and the Conners, they share his fickle characteristic of changing his mind and his policies according to who he is talking to, what the weather is like and what those 'boy's comics' aka the tackiest tabloids are saying.

[A D CHARLES 28 Nov 2007 17:14:42]

So suddenly the tories are up for the governance of the country.
Those right wing nutters in there will surely only stay quiet for so long as long as our obliging media outlets continue to ignore there long term problems and issues, the tories should have an easy ride through to the next election and the only thing that will change it, is when an issue arises that Gordon Brown can directly attack and deal with I.e foot and mouth, glasgow bombing or indeed being the most successfull chancellor in recent political history.

[Iain, Manchester 28 Nov 2007 17:10:33]

effie

it was a former very senior Civil Servant that originally compared Brown to Stalin from when he was at the Treasury. It was a joke at Browns expense, it was funny and should be seen in the light that it was made. The fact is however that Brown is a very weak Prime Minister and is damaging this country. he never takes responsability for anything, his excuse "oh I didn't know" well he must be totally incompatent if he doesnt know whats going on in his own party let alone in the country itself. Harriet Harman should resign

[Effie 28 Nov 2007 17:09:36]

JH - London 28 Nov 2007 16:45:11
AKA the new Disraeli, perhaps you cannot tell the difference from Mr Brown and a mass murderer, there are people on here with enough intelligence to know the difference.
As a footnote, how do you feel about any leader who has so little on top that he is reduced to slinging insults rather than asking questions?
Does that make you feel very proud?
If it does then I think it is time you grew up and turned into a responsible adult.
I think there is more to this saga than meets the eye. I think there is mischief afoot, the only problem is, it is always censored when people try to bring it into the argument.
We will have journalists protecting Cameron at any price.

[The Morning Mail 28 Nov 2007 17:05:46]

Wait a minute Giddy Osborne looks and sounds like Mr Bean whilst Vince Cable looks like a middle class Wurzle Gummidge.

[Chris, Baildon 28 Nov 2007 16:54:15]

Miranda - I am disgusted at your attitude.

To slander Mr Bean in such a disgraceful way as to say he is as incompetent as Mr Brown. No-one, not even a fictional nincompoop, is that incompetent.

I will be writing to Rowan Atkinson asking him to sue you, Vince Cable, David Cameron and anyone who laughed when this joke was made.

IT IS DISGRACEFUL.

[carol-ann liverpool 28 Nov 2007 16:52:33]

Madnurse

I would not be gloating if it was the Tory party. I don't think any party comes out of this any better than before it happened.

Except in the Power stakes..

Seems like Vincent Price oops Cable...is setting himself up for a big role in a CONLIB or LIBCON pact.
AS King-maker, he has his hand on the new leader's 'crown jewels' and he may even get his hands on Cammer's crown jewels, at the next election!

I think that it is not Gordon's integrity that is at question, here, it is the NuCons AND Vincent Price.... oops Cable whose integrity has been diminished by this disgraceful episode.

It is par for the course for the public to have a knockabout, it is quite another thing for those who would aspire to lead the country, to gloat and to attempt to publicly humiliate a man who has given such public service to this country.
Politics in this country has been instantly dumbed down by Cammers disrespect for Parliamentary rules and Cable's sickening attack on GB

In fairness to Cammers, he has never pretended to be a friend of GB, whereas Cable has...that man has just dragged his whole party into disrepute.
I have friends who are Libdem councillors and they are people of the highest integrity. I know they will be appalled at Vince Cable's words.
An act of such utter betrayal, is absolutely beneath contempt.

Well, he couldn't ride his one track pony this week about Northern Rock, so now that he has got a taste for the limelight, he had to come up with something big to out do Cammers.

[JH - London 28 Nov 2007 16:45:11]

McSporran and all the other brown-nosers here would love to have Stalin's powers to gag the free media and hide their problems (this whole incident demonstrates the Labour desire for secrecy).

According to Carol Ann and Effie, Gary Elsby and Co its not the illegal donations received by Labour thzt is the problem it is the Tories LD's and the media for pointing it out.

The posters here are becoming increasingly rabid and rambling in their posts. What is Vince Cable's crime. He told a joke about the beloved Leader..so he gets trashed when he has more intelligence and talent in his little finger than they can muster between them. Grow up and let shave some rational debate.

[Tapestry, Manila 28 Nov 2007 16:20:55]

Mr Bean has energy, is innovative and does not deserve to be associated with a corrupt regime in a decadent country.

Brown oversees death to tens of thousands rather than millions. NHS rates of death are shocking to Americans. Death by bureaucracy is alive and well in Britain, such as Stalin's Russia would recognise. Let's keep on with the Stalin parallel.

[carol-ann liverpool 28 Nov 2007 16:15:01]

Hahahahah!
Well, given that critics have referred to Gordon as more Tory than the Tories - I hardly think the epithet 'Stalin' applies. Stretching a bit that one!

Hardly a Mister Bean when he has shown again and again, that he can make tough decisions, do the right thing and is dedicated to the service of the British public.

TEN YEARS of a stable economy, and investment in the disgracefully neglected, schools and hospitals, etc etc would prove otherwise.

There is NO-ONE in the Parliament, except, perhaps Ken Clarke, can claim to have that experience.

Vince, Uriah Heep, Cable is quite nifty on his feet, and not just on the ballroom floor!

He is pretty nifty with the knife, too: he has already seen off Charles Kennedy and Ming - he will , based on his previous, have some sort of hold over whoever gets to be Leader of The Libdems.
(Smiling Assassin, Vincent Price -ooer Cable, is the REAL leader, remember that!)

[Mike Simpson 28 Nov 2007 16:09:19]

With a face like Vincent Cable's, I wouldn't be too keen on casting aspersions!

[Madnurse 28 Nov 2007 16:01:39]

Miranda:

It's what is called a little light relief, so please don't allow the Labour Is Always Right group to bully you into thinking anything different. They would be gloating had the Conservatives been caught in a similar situation.

Gary:
You are right, Ronnie Barker only made 24,999,999 laugh, but other than that, they are all guilty as charged.

[Effie 28 Nov 2007 16:01:17]

Charming.
Gordon Brown the British Prime Minister being likened to Josef Stalin a mass murderer.
Says more about the level of journalism at Sky than it does about the PM.
How very insulting to say the least.
Can Sky's journalists not try a little harder to be a credit to their chosen proffesion?

[Philip, Bristol 28 Nov 2007 15:53:42]

Gary

I would have thought Stalin would have been one of your heroes anyway.