Just who is taking the lead on stop and search these days? Government or Opposition?

You'd probably say the Conservatives, if the first paper you picked up this morning was The Sun.

In an interview, David Cameron says he wants to cut out the form-filling and remove the requirement on cops to refer up the chain of command whenever they wish to S&S. The police are no longer racist, he asserts, and changes such as these will be welcomed in the ethnic communities.

But hold on a sec... Sources tell me that the government are busy putting the final touches to their plans for stop and search.

Ronnie Flanagan passed his policing review to the Home Sec on Monday night, and it was discussed at Cabinet yesterday, with a view to launching the changes next week.

It similarly wishes to cut bureaucracy and put the power back in the hands of the officers... But from what I hear the plans are rather more fleshed out than those of the Conservatives (as one might expect, given the length of time Sir Ronnie has been at work on this) - for example, in terms of rights and responsibilities, and the use of voice recording to replace lengthy form-filling.

So what's going on here? Did the Tories get wind of the government's plans and try to gazump them? Did Labour see this morning's Sun and rush to brief? Or is this one of those uncanny coincidences that occasionally occur?

Whatever the truth of the matter, it is yet again both amusing and confusing to see Labour and the Conservatives behaving akin to a pair of five year olds during a game of Musical Chairs... The music has stopped and both are attempting to sit on the same seat - and no matter how uncomfortable it makes them neither will budge.

Comments

[Craig Hants 1 Feb 2008 20:00:19]

This stop and search section 60 is carried out out every weekend at every football match in england .Even if your with yours kids .99%are white males is that racist .iam sick and tired of this pandering to minorities in this country.Why is there black, asian ,gay.lesbian,police assocations but no white ones i wonder why well it dont realy i know why and so do you all

[Peter, Fife 1 Feb 2008 10:09:34]

Fluffy, London, England

So that's an admission that you don't know!

[Fluffy, London, England 31 Jan 2008 19:00:18]

'Request reposted from the 4th of January 2008.

Fluffy,

Your question could be answered although why it should be when this would only continue what has proven to be one way traffic prohibits such answers.

“...Peter, Fife. Economics is one of my specialities!...”
“...Posted by: Fluffy, London, England 3 Jan 2008 19:50:28...”'

Hum Peter, one must assume that's "Lower-Scots" (or is that "Higher-Scots", or "Scottish-Gaelic", you have more languages then we tax-laiden English,) seems to lack diction. You should read your contributions (or use Firefox to offer hints) to make you message more legible to us, mere, Sarf' Lundonahs'....

Have you taught yourself the concept of GVA yet? And do you understand how this makes Scotland a "subsidy-monkey" (and this is my description of your 'state')?

One's question was loaded, as one knew whom would fall into the trap. Please raise one's game to a higher level...!

If you do have a honest answer, rsvp. Thanks in advance!

[Phil B - Dronfield, derbyshire 31 Jan 2008 17:18:25]

Perhaps our B grade government will roll back another of their policies, Police Community Support Officers. I understand their numbers are being ammended though. In my old force the number of officers is going down this year, no recruiting. But sleep easy they are recruiting more PCSOs Tough on Crime, More like On Crime, TOUGH!

[Peter, Fife 31 Jan 2008 12:43:00]

Request reposted from the 4th of January 2008.

Fluffy,

Your question could be answered although why it should be when this would only continue what has proven to be one way traffic prohibits such answers.

“...Peter, Fife. Economics is one of my specialities!...”
“...Posted by: Fluffy, London, England 3 Jan 2008 19:50:28...”

Your self-claimed speciality of economics was put to the test in January of this year in the thread “...10 Questions For 2008...” which is still accessable.

“...Where Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have budgets allocated and approved by the House of Commons I have been unable to establish the budget allocated to England; it seems that funding to England is open ended unless you as a self proclaimed specialist in economics can indicate where details of that budget can be found?...”

And the answer is?

[Fluffy, London, England 31 Jan 2008 11:51:58]

Request reposted from yesterday, just in case someone has an answer:

"Can anyone tell me - and this is an honest request - one piece of legislation that has been introduced in the last ten years that has benefited the well-being of the majority of Her Majesty's subjects...?"

Thanks in advance!

[Bruce Hulmes / England 31 Jan 2008 09:12:01]

Well the black population wanted rid of the old syop and search laws and now we now why,it hindered their crime work. This is just another result of mass immgration caused by Old and New Labour and condoned by the Tories since 1948.
We have been importing criminals ever since, only under Blair/Brown it has now reached new highs.
We have allowed people into this country who share no culture or values a recipe for trouble and now we have the end result. There was a time not long past when Home Secretaries and Prime Ministers could walk the streets with no armed body guards intow, but in our rush to make this country a multicultural cess pit where we now have no culture no values except making money by the eastiest means just look at our MPs and see the standards / morals by which they live.
Bring back stop and search anyone found with a weapon or or illegal goods go straight to the cells and any foreigner caught is deported along with any dependants and if that means the whole family so be it.Tough on crime well make me Home Secretary and I promise there wil be a reduction in six months not ten years.

[Andy 31 Jan 2008 07:14:56]

As a serving police officer I can say that this has come as a welcome surprise. When performing stop/search/account in the street, if I don't find anything I have to fill out one piece of paper (5090 form which takes anywhere between 5 - 15 minutes to complete despite Camerons estimates)and two computerized forms (stops database and Crimint, both giving the same info!!). If I find something during the search, say cannabis for which I can issue a cannabis warning (for that all important detection [another story!]) I have to fill out no less than 7 forms (5090, cannabis warning form 67, stops database, crimint, crime report (for detection), form 66 and book 105 (when booking drugs into police property store)) If anyone thinks these forms are needed, they need their heads testing. I work on a proactive streetcrime unit in Lambeth (south London) and can stop anywhere between 10 and 30 people in a single shift. So you see even if nothing is found during the search there is still an enormous amount of reports to complete which means that rather than stop patrolling at 0130 hrs to finish my shift at 0200 hrs I have to be at the station for 0030 hrs to finish on time, thats a full one and a half hours spent at the station filling out reports that duplicate the same info on every single form and aren't needed. As for giving reasons for stopping people, even when senior officers invoke a section 60, wherby police don't need to give grounds for searching due to anticipated violence, if a reason is asked for I think you'll find that officers will have grounds regardless, due to the fact that we are so susceptible to complaints and the "police are guilty untill proven innocent" culture that is so prevelant today.

[Mark Timmins, South Staffordshire 30 Jan 2008 14:44:06]

It is incredulous to hear people say that more stop and search would have little impact on crime.
Some facts for you when an area in the West Midlands introduced daily S60 stop and search powers;

Robbery down 60%
Burglary down 45%
Violent street crime down 30%

You're having a laugh if you think stop and search doesn't work. It has massive potential, especially as this government has let street violence get out of control to this extent.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 30 Jan 2008 14:22:33]

Stand and deliver your gun or your knife, and not before time!

[The Morning Post 30 Jan 2008 12:35:16]

On whose watch were the current stop & search laws introduced which require amendment? Yep! Say no more!

[Effie 30 Jan 2008 12:18:13]

Cameron were in power the stop-and search routine would actually happen

Are you sure about that Victor, after all he changes his mind on a weekly basis.
Sometimes not even weekly.
He is reknown for flip-flopping.

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 30 Jan 2008 11:46:51]

Arguing about the fine tuning of the day-to-day organisation of the Police, NHS and Educational systems can be meaningless. After all, all major political parties will espouse the effective and effective running of policing, NHS and the educational systems. What is important is the big picture; like the nature of EU membership, immigration, proliferation of nuclear weapons and world peace. New technologies can reduce the paper work of the police. Stop and search can be perceived to be discriminatory to those innocent people being stopped and searched. But this is the better of the evils of being the victim of gun and knife crimes, as well as terrorism.

[T.J. from Ireland 30 Jan 2008 11:46:03]

Posted by: Peter Chuah, Birmingham 30 Jan 2008 10:16:02

Yes Peter I see your the qualified expert at every subject you quote.

I merely have to rely on experience and observation.

But at least your not so pedantic on this posts content, so there's hope for you yet!

[The Morning Mail 30 Jan 2008 11:38:51]

Niall,
I have suspected for some time that there are Nucon spies in the Labour camp, given how often Cammers has come on TV to make a proposal that is already in the pipeline of the Labour camp.
Up here, as we tend to be one of the places where 'trials' of government polcies are set up, I can see through what Cammers is doing in trying to 'spoil' Labour announcements by getting in there before Labour gets the info out.
Many of our friends work in areas of work where these trials take place.
I am often surprised to find politicians announcing something 'new' that has been going on up here for months!
Posted by: carol-ann livepool 30 Jan 2008 08:02:28

I agree Carol-Ann, it was also apparent when Cammers and Giddy went for a pre Christmas trip to China, was it to try and pre-empt the PM?

On IHT there were already treasury proposals in the pipe line to reform this tax but a ‘mole’ in the Treasury leaked the proposal to the Tories.

It would seem Cammers, who Ken Clarke describes as too reliant on sound bites, is also a bit of a Copy Cat!

[Madnurse 30 Jan 2008 11:20:50]

Perhaps the reason why there are similarities in policy is because there are similarities in the voter groups they are fighting to attract. Both the main parties are fighting for the centre ground so it follows that both parties, having done their research, will come up with similar proposals. Politicians will come up with suggestions that they feel will get them the most votes. Whether they carry out those policies once they get their grubby little paws on the reigns of power, is another matter.

As I have stated before on Adam's blog, no real choice means no real democracy.

[Victor, NW Kent 30 Jan 2008 11:15:48]

There could be a difference between a Labour announcement and a Conservative policy. As we have seen over and over again the Labour initiative will not be followed throgh nor monitored. If Cameron were in power the stop-and search routine would actually happen.

Let us look at the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith. In July she was informed that there werte a number of illegal immigrants who had been licensed by a quango the SIA to work in security.
She failed to disclose this to Parliament for several months on the grounds that she wanted to be able to determine "exactly" what had occurred.

Ms. Smith had a figure of 4200 and we all know to double any figure that Labour gives us so I posted here that it would be closer to 9,000.

Full disclosure still has not occurred but we now hear of a figure of 6700 admitted and another 4300 believed to be working illegally. Of those known to be illegals the SIA s far managed to withdraw the licences of aout 2300.

Of that 2300 it is believed that no more than 480 have been deported as she promised.

That leaves at least 8700 illegals still working in the security industry and at least 1700 known criminals who are sitting around but have not been charged or deported. At the current rate of documenting the task of removing their licences will take at least two more years and the deportations, at 80 per month, will take over 7 years.

That is why I say that Ministers must spend more time on management and very little on legislation. She promises new laws against drunken violence and disturbance. I am informed that such matters are already covered by more than 40 laws.

[john essex Guildford 30 Jan 2008 10:32:11]

Just empty regurgitated promises from clueless Beany party.

[Fluffy, Londo, England 30 Jan 2008 10:23:21]

What a waste the last ten years have been. Current Stop-and-Search was one of nEU Labour's reforms that is no being rolled back. The reform of the banking system is another.

Can anyone tell me - and this is an honest request - one piece of legislation that has been introduced in the last ten years that has benefited the well-being of the majority of Her Majesty's subjects...?

[Peter Chuah, Birmingham 30 Jan 2008 10:16:02]

By the way T.J., unlike you, I never look up any websites when I engage in discussions with you on the basics of the Criminal Law in an earlier blog.

[T.J. from Ireland 30 Jan 2008 09:35:57]

Posted by: Effie 29 Jan 2008 16:36:25

Effie,
For some reason my reply on the other thread was lost. Suffice to say, I thouroughly enjoy your sense of humour, and decided to return the favour.

[Khalid 30 Jan 2008 09:33:12]

The job of the police is to ensure the enforcement of the law, whilst at the same time deploying due diligence. Now, politics aside, as we know politicians exasborate any civil situation, the streets belong to all and everyone has the right to roam free and safe. If the police are to be continually restricted to perform their duty under such extreme pay conditions, and we as civilisation allow the race card to control individual safety, then it is not the police at fault, but us for being so narrow minded. Take for example a knife or a gun? What other intent is there other than to injure or kill if you carry it on the streets? How sure can you be it wont be used against you? When things go wrong we all blame the police, but never give them praise. So, as for stop and Search, all forms must be reviewed for purpose of duty and not for purpose of politics and the person who has been stopped and searched be provided with a full copy of the report they file thereafter 28days. Now, I wonder why the police didnt charge the home secretary for wasting police time when they went to arbitration and she then back tracked under the "Blue Sky-Dj Tiesto"?

[Peter, Fife 30 Jan 2008 08:02:56]

I do not believe in coincidences in politics, since David Cameron has become leader of the Conservatives he has always tried to pre-empt Government announcements with announcements of his own; some of these have clearly come from clues in the business schedules in the House of Commons some from loose Labour briefings and some from tongues loosened by alcohol subsidised by the taxpayer at Westminster bars.

What has often happened are that these quickly cobbled together policies are either old policies from the eighties and nineties brought hurriedly up to date in addition to new policies which have not been fully thought through, decide in haste repent at leisure.

[carol-ann livepool 30 Jan 2008 08:02:28]

Niall,

I have suspected for some time that there are Nucon spies in the Labour camp, given how often Cammers has come on TV to make a proposal that is already in the pipeline of the Labour camp.

Up here, as we tend to be one of the places where 'trials' of government polcies are set up, I can see through what Cammers is doing in trying to 'spoil' Labour announcements by getting in there before Labour gets the info out.
Many of our friends work in areas of work where these trials take place.

I am often surprised to find politicians announcing something 'new' that has been going on up here for months!

[Dave, Northants 30 Jan 2008 08:00:05]

Juat how many times and for how long have we heard Labour promise to cut red tape and such. Empty promises from a failed government.