Jacqui Smith seems bullish about the Government's chances of persuading Labour waverers of the merits of her controversial anti-terror legislation.

The Home Secretary's tough talk this weekend seems to imply tomorrow's second reading of the Bill should be seen as a key test of her authority. In fact the crunch vote is some way off yet.

Neither the Tories nor the Lib-Dems will oppose the Bill in the Commons at this stage.

For both parties, there are large areas they support - post-charge questioning for example.

The opposition intend to force amendments on the 42 Day question later on.

Nevertheless, it will be intriguing to see whether Labour rebels choose to stick their heads above the parapet at this stage.

Comments

[Bruce Hulmes 3 Apr 2008 10:43:09]

Victor.
I have informed Carol Ann on several occassions who opened the door to modern immigration. The 1848 Labour government.

[keith in croydon 3 Apr 2008 09:53:05]

if mrs smiths goverment did not let the worlds terrorists live in our country then start mad wars we would not need new terror acts labour is chaos mayhem and failure

[Victor, NW Kent 1 Apr 2008 20:38:15]

I note that Carol-Ann has put the blame for unbridled immigration squarely on the last Tory government.

I suppose that completely absolves Labour for its inaction and proven ineptitude [many Immigration Ministers admitting their failures].

It is self-evident that the vital resources of water, power, living space, policing and educational facilities are limited. We cannot support any larger population.

Blair made a huge mistake by not following all other Western European countries in insisting that the flow of East European migrants be controlled. We now have well over a half-million Poles for one. As a result councils in the South, already starved of funds in the redistribution to the North and Scotland, face a increasing unfunded burden.

Illegals tend to settle overwhelmingly in the Home Counties, particularly Kent.

We have schools in London where under 20% of the pupils have English as their home language.

Wheneve the topic of immigration is raised the liberal left plays the race card. That is followed by the usual about how the NHS would not function with foreign staff. That raises two issues - our failure to train enough health professionals, or to give them jobs when quaified; the morality of robbing developing countries of their vital health professionals that they paid to train.

This is not a matter of race. We have no room for more Australians, Canadians, Germans or Dutch either. There is no room at the inn.

[Bruce Hulmes 1 Apr 2008 18:40:55]

Pantherman.
Can't argue with what you say
although some will of course.
Perhaps we should ask the pro-immigration lobby how many people we should take in, 1000000, 10,000000,20,0000000
Bt the way there is a new superbug in our Hospitals and killing people, according to the experts it as been brought into this country by our troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. I ask why are they blaming our soldiers, would it not be more likely to be ayslum seekers or immgrants from this part of the world who are bring this desease over.
Never blame Johnny froriegner for anything will our governemt, but by owning up to the truth they would be admitting they are placing our people at risk on the alter of multiculturism and mass immigration. You can read about it in the Daily Mail.

[Pantherman 1 Apr 2008 17:26:31]

Bruce Hulmes,

Well said !
Although I guess your perfectly sensible post will fall on deaf ears of the optically impaired but orally qualified claptrappers.

Immigration is unsustainable (FULL STOP)
It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics and an erosion of culture and the lunatic Labour and EU immigration policy which ignores the national interest without bye or leave.

But hey, don't believe me, take a look at Sargozy's speech why don't you. Because in his speech, he states that one of the MAJOR areas he and Brown want to get to grips with is IMMIGRATION.

Now all you need to do is to understand that is nothing but a political bribe / spin / lie / propaganda, to get voters here and in Ireland to accept the reform treaty so they can get on with the 'important' job, which obviously isn't anything to do with the remaining contants of the reform treaty which sells our souls to an undemocratic, cunning and deceitful super-state.

Immigration is certainly on the agenda but I ask who put it there ? Not me and not any voter. THEY, the EU put it there, and now they are trying to convince us 'we need' to give away half our country in order to allow THEM to clean up their own mess. I say NO to the reform treaty which is nothing but a constitution in disguise, and I say NO to immigration and I say NO to Labour policies which caused it and the reform treaty to happen.

[Bill, Middle England 1 Apr 2008 13:50:47]

Carol-Ann

I think you need to give Gordon a ring.

He wants immigrants to pay more than UK citizens for public services. Where's the equality in that?

Bruce and Fluffy were spot on.

When you're in a hole, it's best to stop digging....!

[Bruce Hulmes 1 Apr 2008 13:04:47]

Carol Ann. Have you seen todays news headlines.Which states the following in simple terms. This Labour government and its camp followers have been lying through their collective  teeth for the past decade.Yes there has always been immigration if one person per year arrived here that would constitute immigration, would it not. to put it into simple terms during the 1930s this country allowed in around 80.000 jewish refugees these people were maintained by the British board of Jewish Deputies, no cost to the tax payer.After the war we allowed in 115,000 Polish mostly from the free Polish Army, we took in around 80,000 displaced people and for some unkown reason 12,000 ex members of a Ukrainian Waffen SS division.Now after the largest conflict in human history we took in less people then we take in, in six month period now.Todays report from the House of Lords which covers evey aspect of the reasons put out by this government for mass immigration and who,s members are not generally considered to be paid up members of the BNP should it would be hoped put an end to lies and see some positive action on reducing immigration and kicking out those who do not have a solid right to be here.
I would suggest if this reply is not satisfactory, that you take it up with the relavent House of Lords Committee.

[carol-ann liverpool 1 Apr 2008 12:28:59]

Bill said:

The PC mantra of a rich mix of cultures is absolute tosh.

You are correct. It is absolute tosh because it exists only in the imagination of people like your good self and is a convenient handle to put on people who wish only that ALL people are treated equally NOT
favourably.... EQUALLY.

You may not like it, but you cannot dictate to people who they should marry and we can't stop foreign students coming here to study because we rely on that income in our economy.

A limit on migration which takes acounts of skills and abilities and means of support, is something many people will agree with.
The only disagreement is about WHICH immigrants should be allowed in. I happen to believe that race should not be used as a criteria for letting people into this country or not.

[carol-ann liverpool 1 Apr 2008 12:11:57]

Bruce

This government or the Labour Party does NOT have an agenda to encourage wide scale immigration. We have always had immigration to this country whichever party is in control, and infact there are several periods - when there were many more people leaving the country than entering it.

The Tory government stopped collecting disembarkment figures, I am told, which made it difficult to assess the true levels of immigration.
Things such as wide scale people trafficking was not forseen, IMHO, and the government have had to adjust to a new situation.
The government is putting in place more staff and equipment to deal with the problem.

I do not know of ANY political party that believes in mass immigration and/or believes that ILLEGAL immigrants should be allowed to stay in this country unless they are under a real and present and proven threat of death.

I do not believe that nothing should be done about immigration as I recognise the problems that arise with regard to a massive influx of migrants and I do believe that we should have a set of criteria as to how many migrants we allow and we should, like in the USA, ensure that people who migrate to this country, have much needed skills and somewhere to stay and enough money to keep themselves for a certain period of time.

It is not good for us and it is not good for them if people end up on benefits and most members of their families cannot speak or write in, English, because,like people who are full British citizens, not having the ability to read and write in English seriously impairs your ability to get a job and have a reasonable standard of living without becoming dependent on the benefit system for large stretches at a time.

However, I know those who are anti-Europe do not like it, but, at present we cannot refuse entry to this country of European citizens unless they are guilty of a crime.
Just as British citizens take advantage of any advantages they gain from working abroad, Europeans also may gain advantages from working here.
But people need to make up their minds - they can't just pick and choose WHICH migrants are acceptable and which are not in terms of 'race' or 'culture' or 'nationality'

It is quite a different matter to choose which immigrants on the basis of skills and support systems, and I think that is a fair argument.

We see people on this blog praising Polish plumbers because they charge lower rates than English/British plumbers, so it seems that some believe that certain groups of immigrants are OK and others not OK. if you are benefiting personally by their presence!
I wonder how many rich people have 'servants' who are illegal immigrants and how many men exploit young immigrant women who have turned to prostitution or who are being pimped by criminal gangs?
It seems that as long as immigrants know their place, doff their caps and accept low pay, they are welcome and those uppity ones should be sent back home - according to some of those who would wish to incite hatred because it fits in with their own personal agenda or the agenda of those groups whose main aim is the repatriation of ALL peoples who are not true blue Brits from the correct 'stock'.
Aryans and Swatzikas come to mind.

[Bruce Hulmes 1 Apr 2008 10:25:58]

Fluffy.
In total agreement it is the Liberal/Left who continualy lie about the historical immigration numbers and its impact on this country.
An if one wished to expand on their theory of allowing mass immigration because we have had immigrants in the past, well that would apply equally to pratically every country, except Japan. So why were are we not welcomed and allowed to remain in Africa and the Indian sub-continent and China the welcome mat is a one way street it appears.

[Bill, Middle England 1 Apr 2008 09:51:24]

Bruce Holmes and Fluffy are spot on.

They have some powerful support with this week's Lord's Immigration Report confirming what we already know - the economic benefits of mass unplanned immigration are virtually zero.

Multi-culturalism on a mass scale does not work. The UK has become a divisive and dangerous collection of disparate "communities".

The PC mantra of a rich mix of cultures is absolute tosh. The UK now represents a collection of worrying culture clashes, which are becoming increasingly polarised.

Of course, immigration can provide welcome economic and social benefits. The point is it has to be planned sensibly and not at the perpetual expense of the host country or its citizens.

That includes rejecting applicants who want nothing to do with our values and culture.

It's time for a change.

[Fluffy, London, England 31 Mar 2008 19:03:57]

Please don't trawl through history without knowledge. The Angles and Saxons have resided in this isle before the Scots (who are Hibernians). The Picts, Welsh, Romano-British, Belgae and others predate we English, and therefore our Scots-Irish cousins.

The Norse built all Ireland's major cities. The Irish spent most of their time fighting each other (no surprises). Even Brian Boru was stabbed in his back by his kith-and-kin!

So please get of any historical high-horse. All peoples have made mistakes. For an overview of the Irish Famine I would suggest people read into the history of "The Economist".

Once educated, they may then question why Ireland insists on the "New Corn Laws", also known as the C.A.P.. Starving Africans, Latins, and Asians are obviously irrelevant in revisionist history!

[Bruce Hulmes 31 Mar 2008 17:31:05]

Carol An n.
I will change my record dear when you change yours. On my back ground 90% Welsh and some Scottish, hence the name.
Again for a person who passes as a trained teacher you show a complete lack of knowledge about this country, perhaps Irish history is more to your liking but you got the facts on the patato famine wrong to!!.
But we are not a nation of immigrants try for once to stop repeating the old lie.
The amont of immigration into these Lands was actually low, usually groups fleeing Catholic prosecution from Europe. Even after WW2 we only took in a relative small number of refugees, check for yourself.
On the Royals how many millions of Germans and Greeks came over with them?.
What exactly as the industrial revolution and the deveopment of the printing press got to do with mass immigration since 1948?.
But what you miss and I dare so on purpose for it would beat your argument and that is that the small numbers of immgrants in the past intregated, no where in our past history have we taken in the numbers now and you should be aware of that, no time since 1066 have we been forced to accept a foriegn culture under pain of punishment. And at no time in the past were immigrants handed welfare.
So if foriegn children are being taught and told that English is a foriegn language then I am a foriegner in my own land and so are you, but perhaps you have a reason for embracing multi-culturism? I do not and never will.
So to remind you when the Romans landed some of my ancestors could have been amongst those fighting them were yours.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 31 Mar 2008 15:04:11]

Jacqui Smith...talking tough, don't make me laugh!

[carol-ann liverpool 31 Mar 2008 14:15:21]

Bruce

So were the Celts foreigners in their own land when the Romans invaded... change the record man, this is a stupid argument when the majority of the population of this country are immigrants in one way or the other.
Have you traced your own ancestory?

When we changed from a rural society to an industrial urban one, many would have thought that was the end of Britain/England as we knew it, which it was but we can't go back now.

Rural people each had their own local language and way of spelling - for the minority who could write....
When the printing press was invented we then had to have a standardised spelling system so the dominant upperclass language was adopted as 'standard English'.

With the technologial revolution we have become Americanised... speak to any child or young person now and you will find a smattering of 'Americanisms' in their language as well as their 'expression' of American English.

Even our Royals are not strictly of full English stock - they are an intermingling of German, Russian, French Greek and other ancestory.

Of course, they did stop short of marrying black or asian people which is what most people seem to mean when they talk about 'immigrants' - even though to all intents and purposes, Europeans and Americans are foriegners and immigrants in our land, too.

[Bruce Hulmes 31 Mar 2008 13:17:58]

The simpilist way to deal with a threat is to remove it wholesale. Exactly what part of this common sense approach do Labour and their camp followers not understand.
No muslims in this country no need for any additional detention period, no need to spend billions on homeland security. Quite simple really
remove the threat and we all live safer lives and spend the saved on money on ourselves.

[Bruce Hulmes 31 Mar 2008 13:13:02]

Brian Christley.
On you comment on English being the language of the land you are affraid wrong.

The Greater Manchester region spent £4.2 million teaching English as a foriegn language to immigrant children, now that is official from this Labour dominated area, English is now a foreign language so by definition I am a foriegner in the land of my birth, you could not make this up.

[Merv. Beszant, Dubai 31 Mar 2008 13:09:00]

Joey,
If M/s Smith reqests the assistance of Hoon, in an attempt to convert the rebels,
the outcome could see them standing on the parapet and not just showing their heads!

[alan mcpartland 31 Mar 2008 12:40:26]

If Des Browne is serious about talking to the Taliban and if this heralds the beginning of the end of the lunatic "war on terror", then anti terror legislation will soon become redundant.What then would New Labour do? They would be left with no choice but to try and put forward policies which actually work! The "war on terror" has been a great friend to the neo- cons of New Labour and the neo- cons in the White House. It has distracted people from their failures at home.I imagine it will have to be replaced by a "war on something else".

[Brian Christley. Abergele 31 Mar 2008 12:22:22]

Has Jacqui Smith been getting elocutions lessons from Patricia Hewitt? Her slow word by word patronising tone on Sunday’s World at One (30 Mar) sounded as though she was addressing a nursery school class whose first language was not English.

[Madnurse 31 Mar 2008 12:07:44]

It appears to me that this is just a way for many MPs in the Labour Party to secure their future. How so? I hear you ask.
The Equalities and Human Rights Commission (Another Quango funded by us) may take the government to court if the 42 days without trial is voted into law.

It seems that with so many lawyers in parliament these days, introducing such controvertial legislation is likely to provide these lawyers with work once they are ousted at the next election.

[Khalid 31 Mar 2008 12:06:12]

Sir Joey
As this debate continues to pastures new, may I ask the Home Secretary and other such spin doctors of politics,(David Davies included) do they not feel ashamed to spurt out such nonsense surrounding the teething troubles most recent within Terminal 5 and can they name 1 single project they have implemented with 100% success? (thought not).
I feel disgusted by the further drivel from the Transport Committee persona whom should look closer to her house before castagating BA upon what I deem a fundamental success and the pride of Britain. So, [Tom Jones] where is [Delilah]when it comes to MP's expense? Car share lane ring any bells??????

[Fluffy, London, England 31 Mar 2008 11:41:08]

Geesh, why bother listening? nEU-Labour are a flush-bust (hence the Ministers chest-baring).

Two more years of failure and destruction - a 'la ZAN[E]U Labour (Scottish Baathists and Co-operative Quislings). Then - like the brave people of Zimbabwe - the Marxist dictator will be gone!