Volatile business, politics. Just 24 hours ago, Labour MPs were in good heart and some Shadow Cabinet members rather gloomy after Harriet Harman got the better of the Conservatives' star debater William Hague at PMQs.

Suddenly, it's Labour looking rattled and the Tories are leaving Westminster for the two-week post-Easter recess with a spring in their step.

Why? Because of an end-of-term outbreak of dissent in Labour ranks on tax policy.

First came Licensing Minister Gerry Sutcliffe's remarkable call to Alistair Darling to "change his mind" on the big rises in duty on alcohol he announced in his Budget three weeks ago.

Then came further protests from Labour MPs against Gordon Brown's abolition of the 10p tax rate in his 2007 Budget, an issue that prompted heckling when he was challenged on it at Monday's Parliamentary Labour Party meeting.

A Commons motion backed by 30 MPs, mostly Labour back benchers, complains that "many people are being made worse off" and it is "having a disproportionate impact on people who can ill afford to be made worse off".

It's all begining to unravel, claim the Tories. "There is an open tax revolt in the Labour Party and it shows the government is in disarray as a serious economic crisis looms," says the Shadow Chancellor, George Osborne.

Well, up to a point. It's true that this bout of end-of-term dissent follows Health Minister Ivan Lewis's claim at the weekend that the Government is "losing touch" with voters and then the mutinous mood at the PLP.

One senior Labour MP told me: "I definitely heard heckling. Not even when Tony Blair was at his most unpopular after the Iraq war was the mood at the PLP as hostile as it was against Gordon on Monday."

And the backers of the EDM (Early Day Motion) are not all the usual suspects. The MP who tabled the motion, Greg Pope, dubbed a "Hugh Grant lookalike" in his younger days, is an ex-whip and serial loyalist.

Other senior loyalists backing the motion include Kevin Barron, a former Parliamentary private secretary to Neil Kinnock and now chairman of the Health Select Committee, and ex-minister Janet Anderson.

So Gordon Brown and his Chief Whip Geoff Hoon will be glad their increasingly rebellious back benchers are away from Westminster for a couple of weeks.

Comments

[Victor, NW Kent 8 Apr 2008 14:57:43]

Carol-Ann

It is a non-step process by you, hoilding out Liverpool as a shining example to all others. Even today you are bragging about your twice weekly bin collections of which one is for recycling. That is what everyone else calls one a week bin collections. This is not a blog about Liverpool but about the whole of the United Kingdom and its role in the world. Nobody else is as parochial in their postings a you are - there is a whole world outside the Mersey.

I did not say that Liverpool had the worst crime figures related to the national average. I replied to your claim that it was a low crime area. Actually Manchester has still higher averages on all of those sectors but that does not make Liverpol's low.

Parts of other major cities are as bad but Birmingham is far below either Liverpool or Manchester. The total list is too long and not relevant to my original reply. I am, not allowed to publish URLs here but you can easily find all of the areas on the internet.

The statistics I never trust are those which come from the Labour machine - those are hardly ever credible.

[carol-ann liverpool 7 Apr 2008 22:47:43]

Victor

There you go jumping to conclusions again:
I have never said that everything is 'hunky dory' in Liverpool.
I have just been counteracting some of the prejudices of the Association of Right Wing Stereotypers.

What happened to the figures for other comparable-to-Liverpool inner city crime figures?

You do make a very good point: when government statistics suit you, you use them; when they don't suit, they aren't added up properly or don't measure what they are supposed to measure or are not applicable to the situation and whatever other excuses are used which basically amounts to :
When Labour says its good, they are wrong, but when you or Cammers say they are bad, they are right!

[Bernard from Horsham 4 Apr 2008 17:17:06]

Carol- Ann
Verbosity doesn't cover up the failure of you argument, and in the last paragraph, trying to blame it on the Lib Dems is quite farcical.

[Victor, NW Kent 4 Apr 2008 16:30:56]

The source of those statistics is your own government, police crime statistics.

Sorry if you are disillusioned. I even forgot to mention that the figures do not include murders or othe culpable deaths.

I have no wish to contact your army of LibDem councillors - I just got fed up with your preaching about how hunky-dory everything is in Liverpool and how we can learn from you.

Mike

You are just in denial. I tend not to believe government statistics either but at least these are approved by the Home Office, not just unchallenged asides by Gordon Brown at PMQs.

[carol-ann liverpool 4 Apr 2008 15:44:50]

John

I suggest you read some of the plans/pamphlets produced by Labour in the past and, as a matter of fact, Cammers is taking stuff from those. He also has his people with their ears close to the ground and as soon as Labour is about to announce something, he starts talking about it and then says that Labour is taking HIS advice!

So, don't kid yourself that Cameron is coming up with anything new.
Anyway it is not the ideas that he is stealing from Labour that I am bothered about, it is the stuff the Nucons plan that they CAN'T tell the public about because they would have no chance of getting in if they revealed them.
I am sure they will please you very much given your prejudices.

[Mike Simpson 4 Apr 2008 15:44:04]

Posted by: Victor, NW Kent 4 Apr 2008 15:20:16

Victor,
You more than anyone should surely realise there are lies, damned lies and statistics. In all manner of ways statistics can be manipulated and extrapolated to present a picture which may not actually be the case. So I think that sets into the pattern of crime statistics which you make reference to.

carol-ann, as usual you deliver with your straight-forward punchy views, which are enjoyable to read and most effective in setting the record straight. Pity some of the NuCons don't like to face up to the facts of the matter; they just hate it when people point out the 3rd rate chancers and no-hopers in David "Charlatan" Cameron's shadow cabinet who are totally devoid of any realistic, credible or competent policies.

[carol-ann liverpool 4 Apr 2008 15:34:19]

Victor

There are lies, damned lies and statistics; perhaps you would like to publish the figures on London and other inner city areas?

I shall be contacting our Chief Constable directly for his comments... then I'll get back to you.

As regards to other issues re Liverpool, maybe you should address them to the LibDems who run the council.

[Victor, NW Kent 4 Apr 2008 15:20:16]

Carol-Ann

You can read this boring reply as posted earlier - date shown:

Carol-Ann
"Just to correct your ignorance of the crime situation in Liverpool":

Actual statistics: Crimes per thosand inhabitants - EXCLUDING crimes against under 16 year olds:

Robbery - Liverpool 3.9 England 1.85
Vehicle Theft: L= 7.06, E= 4.04
Theft from a motor vehicle - L= 16.07, E= 9.56
Sexual Offences - L= 1.30, E= 1.17
Violence against a person - L= 36.96, E= 19.97
Burglary - L= 11.75, E= 5.67

That does not paint a picture a low crime rate. Are you completely sure that you live in Liverpool?

I am not conducting a vendetta against Liverpool but you keep raising the city as a Utopia. I prefer facts.

Posted by: Victor, NW Kent 2 Apr 2008 15:29:43

[John (Northumberland) 4 Apr 2008 14:32:45]

Carol Ann

Don't you worry about David Cameron's long term plans. he has them aplenty(unlike Labour in '97 who promised everything, only for us to discover that they had no ideas all along after the election).

No Opposition unveils plans this early. Because it allows the Government to start debating those rather than the policies they are implementing.

However, there is another reason at this point in time. Everytime the Conservatives launch a policy, Brown steals it. For example, the Inheritance Tax policy and Non-doms announced at the last Conservative Conference and amazingly in the Budget just one week later!

[carol-ann liverpool 4 Apr 2008 13:52:54]

Jon

1. I don't usually bother reading much of what Victor writes: too boring;
however, if you would point me in the direction of his comments on crime, I will respond, just for you - I can't find them on here (?)

I promise I have not avoided them, I just haven't seen them

2. Now, I am often reminded not to talk about the past re the Tories by you and your camp followers, however, I could go back a few years and remind you once again of some salient facts, as long as you don't get too upset.

Campbell didn't have that much control when it came to political matters because there were several MPs and Ministers, as I recall, who did their own thing regardless of TB or AC.

I also remember that one or two Tories crossed the floor to join Labour....

Of course, the few who are in it for the power and glory often follow what they think is going to be the winning team.... that is a sad fact of human nature and some people ARE that shallow. Same with an election: a lot of people don't vote on principle, they vote for what they see as the potential winner.
My grandfather used to say, 50 years ago, that people vote with their 'back pockets' and that still applies, today.
So, it is understandable that people will be down about the economic situation. Not that they will blame themselves for getting into horrendous debt, or the banks/building societies and loan companies for being less than prudent in handing them out..and, it seems, people are still spending on credit cards etc, apparently.
I
I
After consulting my 'mystical crystal ball'
My prediction is that the election following the next one, neither GB or DC will be leading their parties and the LibDems will have a bigger share of the vote than they ever have.

Unless Cammers comes up with some long term plans and policies, the public will be sick of him by the time of the next election
That is why the Nucons are doing everything they can to destabilise the country because they can't win fair and square.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 4 Apr 2008 13:21:25]

John Northumberland
Some interesting points in your post.
Carol Ann will follow her
ex-Leader Blair and say about Prescott...John will be John!
They find street fighting quite acceptable, perhaps it is what they are used to growing up.
This Labour government are far worse than any other Labour government in past history for lining their own pockets. They play the social divide card at every turn. They want to portray themsleves as the party of downtrodden, down at heal, socially deprived people that they are going to uplift, shouting from the roof tops that the Conservative party are the party of the "Toffs" That is why they introduced top up fees for Universities, so that more working class people can afford to go, raise them out of poverty blah,blah, and high taxes so that you can enjoy the fruits of your labour.
But the truth is, power corrupts and quickly they see how they can use this power to their advantage, "10 jobs Blair" is a classic example.
Carol Ann just hasn't caught on yet.

[Khalid 4 Apr 2008 12:21:45]

Im sure the backbenchers will be [Just Around The Hill] no matter what [Sash] is whipped.
Inosfar as taxation and other such matters under the remit of politics, I think a recess might assist undue expenditure!

[John (Northumberland) 4 Apr 2008 12:17:49]

Alan

I have just read your excellent piece to Carol Ann.

The answer you are looking for is tribalism. Labour GOOD. Conservative BAD.

I was raised in Newcastle. Labour family. I joined the Party in 1985. Left a couple of years later because of the total lack of regard for internal democracy. This should have told me something but I continued to vote Labour until 2001.

Now Thatcher is usually hailed for 'controlling' the Unions. Well by wiping out our manufacturers she contributed. But the Unions (now all Public Sector) are more powerful than ever. As New Labour will soon discover.

Despite the promises of 1997, Labour have done nothing to reverse this. In fact, the trade deficit in manufacture in '97 was 7 Billion. Today it stands at 59 Billion. And 1.25 million manufacturing jobs have been lost. ALL governments post-79 have been Thatcherite economically and politically. But the Labour tribe choose not to see this.

Like you I am outraged at the illegal war of 'regime change' and lies of Blair & Labour. But as a result Blair makes millions out of speaking engagements in the US. Who are the mugs?

Though I disagree with you on the EU. Blair & Brown have just handed even more sovereignty & cash over to a non-elected, corrupt and bureaucratic empire.

Anyway, the tribal voters like Carol Ann, cannot leave the past behind. Like Prescott, still fighting the class war of the 19th Century (and what a man of the people he turned out to be!).

Sadly, they cannot look at todays problems and listen to what others have to say.

They belong to the Labour tribe. No thought required.
It's easier that way...

[John (Northumberland) 4 Apr 2008 10:54:14]

alan mcpartland dublin

Hi Alan. They ditched Blair when he became a political liability. And will do the same with Brown.

The only question is when?

Brown at Number 10:

Northern Rock crash, stole Tory IHT & non-dom policies, announced withdrawal of troops from Iraq during Tory Conference, talked up then cancelled Election, dodgy donor, Hain dodgy donations, Northern Rock finally nationalised after months of dithering, 40 billion in red this year after 15 years of growth, house market meltdown...recession.

Currently 10-15 points behind in polls. If you were a Labour MP, how would you feel about your future?

[alan mcpartland dublin 4 Apr 2008 10:42:32]

Carol Ann....you sound like a social democrat, just like me....so why do you support New Labour? I have been following British politics since the days of Harold McMillan and I cannot remember another British PM who cosied up to the Press and Big business as much as Blair. He consulted Rupert Murdoch on policy for God's sake and perhaps gave him a de facto veto. He was also the only British PM who since Suez unleashed a totally unecessary war and an aggressive rather than a defensive war on what was a second world nation. He did this knowing he had lied as to the reasons. Those now in this New Labour government sat on their hands and allowed him. As a result of a promise made to Bush some years before, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed, several hundred British troops and 4000 American troops. A war and thousands of MURDERS based on lies and deceit! 3 million people displaced; the biggest displacement of people since WW2. It was immoral, criminal and sub human and personally I will never forgive Blair or New Labour. I am no Tory but I want to see New Labour buried for years at the next election. Buried for long enough to allow the many decent people in the party, to purge the cancer of Blairism from it once and for all. I would also make the point that New Labour has failed badly under Blair. His obsession with targets and tesing has been a disaster in the NHS and the schools. His policies on crime failed abjectly. "Tough on the causes of crime"! He filled up the prisons, putting people in jail for trivial offences. He had the police running around arresting people for little or nothing, just to meet their targets. On Europe he had not the guts to move Great Britain closer to the centre as he promised. Where was his "ethical" foreign policy. I agree with David Cameron on social issues. The biggest cause of dysfunctional children and young people today is the breakdown of the family. New Labour will not admit this, despite the evidence to the contrary, for purely ideological reasons.I agree with you on many points but I believe David Cameron has the better policies on social issues. Why do social democrats and socialists find it so hard to admit and accept that the liberal social agenda has failed. I am a social democrat as far as economics but, I feel no need to carry also the baggage of social liberalism. New Labour and in particular Blair, poisoned politics with his cynicism, spin, deceit and manipulation of people and news. They demeaned what should be a noble profession of public service. The level of cynicism about politicians has never been higher after ten years of Blair. I see him now spouting on about "Faith and Politics". What a bloody hypocrite. He really is tempting fate!

[alan mcpartland dublin 4 Apr 2008 10:18:46]

Dissent in the PLP? Well I suppose even lapdogs like to bark just once in their life, but don't let's get carried away. Most people in the PLP would have been very happy in Ceaucesceu's Romania. Now how do you spell Ceau........Never mind. You know who I mean.

[Bernard from Horsham 4 Apr 2008 09:41:49]

Carol Ann, Never use 4000 words when 40 will do. I really think you are living in dreamland. You should get out more...

[Fellipe, England 4 Apr 2008 08:23:22]

The House of Cards starts to fall. Card by card....slowly at first......

[carol-ann liverpool 3 Apr 2008 18:57:05]

Oh, I do get it. It is you who don't get the fact that this has got nothing to do with policies and everything to do with Nucon control of the media via a bunch of Eton schoolboys who think it is their God given right to rule.

I wouldn't be so bothered if it were William Hague who was leader of the Conservatives or David Davis, because I would feel, like many others, that they would have a good overview of the population and a greater understanding of the needs of ALL the people.

If the Nucons get in next time, we will be having this same conversation but in reverse in another 5-10 years.

People get fed up especially when things start to hit their pockets, but it is like business people who moan when their costs go up.... they never say Thanks, Gordon, when the economy was going well. They never say: I'm rich thanks to you, man!

Look at the utility companies, huge rises and try to butter us up by saying that they have carried the increase without passing it on....but, even BEFORE they passed the so called rises on, they were making BILLIONS.

When ciggies or beer go up, the business people start charging that day for the extra cost even though they have a shedload of stuff they bought cheaper at the old costs especially in poor areas. They don't say, Yippee, Gordon, thanks for that extra bit of dosh you put my way, you are the geatest!
The rich keep quiet when their winning and moan like hell when something reduces their profit margin, then pretend to care about the poor suffering. What hypocrisy.
I bet Cammers and Giddy are laughing their heads off, listening to the Nucons on here, Con-man and Co. don't need the upper classes to keep the poor in check, they have the nouveau bourgoise to do that.
Pass the twiglets, Abigail!

[madasafish, Stoke on trent 3 Apr 2008 18:42:30]

Oh dear, it would appear you can't fool all the Labour MPs ALL of the time. It takes them 10 years to realise reality.. but then anyone who supports Labour or indeed is a Labour MP is rather out of touch with reality.

Never mind.. welcome to the real world.. eventually. Next you will tell us immigration brings no benefits to the country, the Iraq war was based on a lie and Gordon Brown is a vote loser.

[John (Northumberland) 3 Apr 2008 18:18:34]

The Brown economic illusion is becoming clear, even to Labour MP's now.

And things are only going to get worse. Much worse. And its all down the mismanagement of the economy by G Brown.

And then all the Labour MP's will lose their jobs. Good for us but not so good for them.

A word of advice, never have a fight with someone who has nothing left to lose. They will fight like a tiger.

And this may well happen within the PLP before the next election.

So Gordon Brown may well be the only PM NEVER to fight an election...

And there was rejoicing in the streets!!!

[Bruce Hulmes 3 Apr 2008 18:05:53]

Carol Ann
1. just a reminder for you to get back in touch with Victor regarding your crime figures for Liverpool.
2.Are you talking about those Labour MPs and their pagers, who could not break wind without permision from Campbell/ Blair, infact Blair could not break wind without permission from Campbell or have you forgotten, should get that short term memory loss looked at, I will remind you again tomorrow incase you forget.

[Bruce Hulmes 3 Apr 2008 18:00:42]

Madnurse.
Theres a chap in Fife living on a good civil service pension who thinks the low paid are having a really good break under Labour. He pointed out to me that they could earn upto £290 per week (although the mininum wage only pays £193.20per week) now that surely should allow them to purchase a pad in Connaught Square, me be thinking.

[seb/uk 3 Apr 2008 17:45:33]

I don't think the Conservatives need worry about David Cameron's lack of substance.
Gordon Brown and his cabinet are making a great job of promoting the tories.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 3 Apr 2008 17:43:22]

Carol Ann
What is it with you, probably the air in Liverpool , but you have a very strange take on reality in Britain today.
Your government have been known to be the biggest employer of illegal immigrants Britain has ever seen.
You may be a resident of the Capital Of Culture, but have a heart dear, your government are turning a blind eye to illegal immigration, it is saving them money...big time!
ID cards will not be an issue here.

[Bernard from Horsham 3 Apr 2008 17:41:27]

Carol Ann, you just dont get it do you, its got nothing to do with bottle and more worry about wafer thin majorities.
Once Labour MP's start rebelling on flagship policies such as Gordon's 2p or not 2p non tax cut and the abolition of the 10p threshold, the Govts days are numbered, ok it might be a slow decay over 18 months , but its a clear sign that Labour are on the way out.
Lets revisit this subject when the election is called, and we will see who was right.....

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 3 Apr 2008 17:38:23]

Madnurse
Wasn't it the Home Office who are the biggest employer of illegal foreign workers at the last count.
The minimum wage doesn't apply in government departments.
This Labour government need to be held to account methinks!

[Victor, NW Kent 3 Apr 2008 17:30:47]

I'm with you Carol-Ann. I think that Labour MPs should all have a row with their leaders.

When Graham Brady and Patrick Mercer disagreed with Cameron it is true that they were quickly demoted.

Brown does not have that luxury since they almost all disagree with him over something, in fact he is perfectly disagreeable.

[carol-ann liverpool 3 Apr 2008 17:09:34]

At least Labour MPs have got the bottle to disagree on some issues and are not afraid to put their heads above the parapet - unlike the NuCons who would be taken out and shot at dawn if they did so.
We do know, don't we, Jon....that there are those who are not exactly cheerleaders for Cammers... and are indeed worried about his lack of substance...but they haven't got the bottle to say so for fear of being decapitated by Hilton.

Did I hear you mention Giddy?
My goodness, nurse has kept him out of the sunshine since the budget, poor little chap, was he having trouble with his sums again? Has he been over to Belize to find out how Lord Moneybags is running the economy over there, then?
Maybe he will reduce the cost of bananas and pineapples if he ever becomes Chancellor..... in his dreams that is!

[Madnurse 3 Apr 2008 17:08:30]

Could this be a sign of a swing back to Labour's roots by some of it's more traditional members?
The party was started to give a voice to, and to look after, the working people and to champion the poor.
At the moment, Labour could not be further from their founding principles if they tried.

I agree with Victor, those on a national minimum wage (just about all unskilled work these days) should not pay any income tax at all.

If someone takes a job on the national minimum wage and then has to have their money made up in benefits, this means the taxpayer is subsidising that private company to keep it's wages low. If companies had to pay the going rate for an area, decided by factors such as the number of jobs about, the level of unemployment in that area and house prices, then the free market would find the correct level of pay for any given job in any given area. It is madness to expect someone living in London or the South East to be able to take care of themself and family on the national minimum wage.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 3 Apr 2008 16:55:20]

There are some people on this blog who are saying I am going down in flames, but maybe they should look at the party they give their support to.
All I said was Labour are the party of "stealth" taxes, oh boy did I get a grilling. Now it seems the Labour party faithfull are in a quandry over taxes.
The truth is out there...believe it folks!