For those of you who were itching to ask the PM about his views on classical oratory styles on his Youtube free-for-all, don't bother! He's dealt with this thorny issue already.

Addressing the Google Zeitgeist conference this morning, Gordon Brown explained that when Cicero spoke, people said "Great speech," but when Demosthenes spoke, the response was "Let's march."

I'm glad that's sorted. And yes, he's in the marching camp.

Comments

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 21 May 2008 10:09:12]

Morning Mail
We agree on one point then, Brown would be better off as an academic. PM... no, not human enough and no wit, and he was a pretty bad chancellor as well, his economics were flawed.
As to Cameron being a PR man, that is your opinion which you are entitled to, but I will disagree, which I am entitled to.

[keith in croydon 21 May 2008 08:41:10]

i would like to ask gordon why he thinks 2 million people have left this country in the last ten years anything to do with the goverment from hell.

[The Morning Mail 20 May 2008 19:25:29]

Morning Mail
What you have quoted about the PM's speech by the Spectator reporter...pretty highbrow and probably too "toff" for you.
Careful you don't cross over to the Conservatives. Bye the way Gordon Brown would probably be better as a university lecturer than he is as PM, maybe he has found his true calling.

Posted by: Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 20 May 2008 09:38:30

Liz I always find your posts humorous and you do have a unique perspective as Dave Cammers Cape Town cheerleader. You do infer GB is an academic. Can I suggest your leader is a PR man.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 20 May 2008 09:38:30]

Morning Mail
What you have quoted about the PM's speech by the Spectator reporter...pretty highbrow and probably too "toff" for you.
Careful you don't cross over to the Conservatives. Bye the way Gordon Brown would probably be better as a university lecturer than he is as PM, maybe he has found his true calling.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 20 May 2008 09:06:20]

Chris Mumby
Yes Chris the Champagne will flow in Cape Town should the Conservatives take the seat from Labour. Crewe and Nantwich is just the beginning, the fall of "Rome" ie... Downing Street and Brown aka Tiberius is the prize.

[The Morning Mail 19 May 2008 21:42:03]

Confident, relaxed and witty, he delivered his speech without notes, pacing the stage and playing the audience at this excellent event.

Instead of lecturing them - the cream of the new media world - he praised them for their part in the 'biggest re-structuring of the global economy we have seen in our history.' He urged them, in troubled times, when the popular clamour for protectionist measures will inevitably grow, to be resolute, patient advocates for free trade and globalisation.

In the questions afterwards, he leant back in his chair and roared with laughter when asked about Britain joining the euro. I asked him what lessons there were for the political class to learn from the web revolution and the rise of what Don Tapscott calls the 'Net Generation': disdainful of hierarchy, free of deference, taking their cue from 'peer-to-peer recommendation' rather than the instruction of elites.

An intersting and informed view of the PM's speech by the right wing journal 'The Spectator'.

The blue rinsed brigade will have 2 more years to watch a leader of substance deal with the issues while a vacuum of an Opposition leader floats on every passing bandwagon.

[Chris Mumby 19 May 2008 17:11:01]

Elizabeth Davies Cape Town

I'll sure be cheering when Gordon Brown and his mob are kicked out - starting with Crewe.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 19 May 2008 16:49:51]

Chris, Baildon
Thank you for the info on how Tiberius left Rome. When Brown leaves Downing Street there will most likely also be rejoicing in the streets by the citizens, hopefully there will be no comeback by Brown.

[Chris, Baildon 19 May 2008 16:46:32]

Madnurse - sorry about the confusion - obviously should have been Elizabeth.

Not much classics at my "bog standard comprehensive" - just a passing interest in history.

[mr happy up north 19 May 2008 16:07:37]

madnurse

you make a fair point but i suspect we may have to wait until the next budget report to see what mr darling plans to do to mitigate the effects of cutting the 10p tax band, on a long term basis.
however, as the majority of those affected will not receive their money back until september, it is difficult to see how this decision can do anything to help at the by-election, as mr cameron has claimed.
it can't be a tax con if it isn't immediate. after all, it only became an issue when it hit people's pockets and purses, some months after it was mooted.
had the election been in september he may well have had a point.
i do hope that mr brown sees fit to take a chunk off the top 1% of exceedingly rich to offset the return of a 10p tax band for the poorest.

we must not lose sight of the fact that many of the people helped are not what many would consider poor. some people are getting much more than i get through my pension. £20,000 plus from where i am, seems like a king's ransom!
however, i do not begrudge young families a little extra because it must be so difficult bringing up a family when everything for children is so expensive.
they also grow bigger earlier which means they have to start paying vat on shoes and clothes from about 10years onwards when vat should really only be taken, in my view, according to age rather than size.
neither do i begrudge older pensioners a bit extra, if that means they can be a bit warmer or eat better food, that is fine by me. my own needs are pretty frugal.

i suspect that we will be returning to this issue about tax sooner rather than later.

[Madnurse 19 May 2008 15:51:59]

Chris:

Mmmm...Many thanks for the information. Although I left school in 1941 aged fourteen, I can confirm that the dear nuns did give us girls a fairly sound grounding in the classics. Obviously, it being a Roman Catholic school, Latin was on the curriculum. I suspect you are confusing me with Cape Town's Elizabeth whom is many miles from me, here in Henley:-)

[Chris, Baildon 19 May 2008 15:28:53]

Madnurse re Tiberius's death...

From Wicki

"Tiberius died in Misenum on March 16, AD 37, at the age of 77.[59] Tacitus records that upon the news of his death the crowd rejoiced, only to become suddenly silent upon hearing that he had recovered, and rejoiced again at the news that Caligula and Macro (his sons) had smothered him."

It is likely to be apocryphal thou'

[purps, chelmsford 19 May 2008 14:54:00]

Is comrade Brown trying to compete with the people's Boris.

Brown is more like Kenneth Williams >in more ways than one< playing Julius Caesar, infamy infamy, they've all got it in for me

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 19 May 2008 14:37:21]

Chris, Baildon
"Tristissimus homium...the gloomiest of men".
Very apt description of Gordon Brown Chris, thank you for that.
Under Brown aka Tiberius, the Britons have had a "Anno Horribilis".
How did Tiberius die, did he get a dagger in his back?

[Victor, NW Kent 19 May 2008 13:50:16]

Chris

I just had a horrible thought. If Brown goes before the next election will his successor also be a Caligula?

[Victor, NW Kent 19 May 2008 13:48:05]

Chris

That is an amazing parallel. So Blair is Augustus and Brown is his successor, Tiberias. Their characters are described perfectly.

Thank you, friend.

[Steve, London 19 May 2008 13:14:36]

Gordon should stop going on about the classics, and swot up on his maths and economics instead, because in those 2 subjects he's a total infant.

Someone who didn't realise that 10 plus 10 equals 20 has no business tying to make himself appear "intelligent" by quoting classics; learn basic maths first Gordon.

Someone who still doesn't understand how national debt works shouldn't be quoting the classics either; learn basics economics first Gordon.

He's a perfect example of someone who's only learnt selective irrelevant subjects; learn the classics but have no grounding in reality or the basics, that way the classics become spurious quote-sources with no real meaning.

The man's a true idiot in every sense of the word.

[Victor, NW Kent 19 May 2008 12:47:57]

Cicero and Demosthenes were both lawyers and noted orators - a bit like Tony Blair.

However, Cicero was a committed democrat and a peace-maker, totally opposed to dictatorships.

Demosthenes dragged Athens into a series of unsuccessful wars against Macedonia. In that he was similar to Blair.

Brown certainly does not have oratorical skills to compare. Howeve, Demosthenes had some unpleasant personal habits.

[Colin 19 May 2008 12:36:42]

Gordon, if you want my advice, stop lieing!.

Example, you may think your claims about immigration and the points system have worked to calm the electorates fears, but you're taking the electorate to be fools. That only applies to non EU immigrants and we all realise that people outside the EU are not the problem.

You don't have any say in who comes in from the EU, so stop pretending that your policy is going to change anything, it just brings you into further disrepute.

[Chris, Baildon 19 May 2008 12:32:19]

If Gordon Brown likes the classics maybe he should look at what the problems encountered by the emperor Tiberius on succeeding Augustus - quoting The Oxford History of the Classical World (1986) David Stockton wrote the following:

"He came to the task of government in his mid-fifties with excellent and unrivalled credentials. But his character was dour and introspective, poisoned by unhappy private experience, with more than a touch of melancholia and insecurity. Above all, he lacked the consummate political adroitness of Augustus, his self-confidence and prestige..., the genial tact which had moved him to ask on his deathbed "if everybody had enjoyed the play". Men could never be quite sure what was going on in Tiberius's mind. This led to the view... that he was a hypocrite, a master of dissimulation, a view sometimes ludicrous in its strained invention or innuendo. In fact, the true dissimulation stemmed not from the man, but from the system which he inherited, the product of the great illusionist Augustus."

Tiberius was called tristissimus hominum, "the gloomiest of men" and he was exiled from Rome as he was so incompetent.

[Wilf, Dover 19 May 2008 12:28:51]

Labour, you're totally failing to comprehend why you're so unpopular.

It has little to do with David Cameron and the Conservatives and much more to do with your silly Policys, Laws, Bans and Taxes.

You don't have an external problem, you have an internal one, thats why you're going to be out of power in 2010.

Stop bleating about 'Dave' and then stop listening to the vocal do gooding minoritys, then start looking inward for your problems and return to looking after the 'Majority' that will otherwise ultimately vote you out, because a £120 tax bribe just don't cut it in 2008.

Life is awful in this country at the moment, from secondary school education to smoking bans, from the petrol pump to the National Health Service and very likely to get worse, not because of a great Conservative party, but becuase of a rubbish Labour Government..

You've gone to far Labour, it's not a question of stopping, it's a question of reversing if you want to win back your supporters.

Gordon Brown would say 'I'm sorry, but I don't accept that' the country will say 'Well sorry Gordon, but you're going to have to accept that we're voting for somebody else, because you suck'.

[John (Northumberland) 19 May 2008 12:27:15]

mr happy up north

You raise a good question.

Easy to vote against the incompetent, spendthrift Mr Brown - but what would a vote FOR Mr Cameron be about?

Dangerous to make big promises when you're skint. With rising fuel and commodity prices. Taxes at an all time high. So here's a starter of what the Conservatives are campaigning on:

1. Leave us to lead our own lives ie. the End of the Nanny State.

2. Seek out the waste in Government (on a budget of 600 Billion there will be no difficulty finding it).

3. Get those on 'incapacity benefit' back into the labour force. (A New Labour scam to massage the unemployment figures)

4. Limit the amount of time any individual can have on benefits. No work - No cash.

5. Proper immigration controls. Free at point of usage healthcare and open borders is a contradiction.

6. In Europe but not run by Europe. We want to be able to vote our Governments in and out.

7. Proper support and resources for our Armed Forces and their families.

8. Once the finances are under control - move to lower taxes.

9. Tax & Benefits which support instead of penalise the family unit.

10. An full Energy Policy including the commissioning of the next generation of Nuclear Power Stations. This is a strategic necessity.

[Chris, Baildon 19 May 2008 12:23:59]

So according to Gordon Brown

"when Cicero spoke, people said "Great speech," but when Demosthenes spoke, the response was "Let's march.""

He forgot to add - When Gordon Brown speaks - people say "Wake up".

Bit of a slur on Cicero - one of Rome's greatest orators, who became a Consul and through the power of his orations managed to stop a Civil War.

[Madnurse 19 May 2008 12:22:17]

Mr Happy Up t'north:

Quote "he has been helped greatly in this department by mr brown's reduction of the 22p down to 20p tax band."

A tad selective sir!! Whilst it may be true to say that the twenty two percent tax band has been reduced by two percent. Is it not also true to say that the ten percent tax band has been doubled to twenty percent? Is this a classic case of Labour spin? From your postings you are clearly an educated intelligent person, so it's unlikely you are a victim of Labours current education system, so is this party spin/progaganda you are peddling or did they even con you in to thinking it was a tax cut?

[John (Northumberland) 19 May 2008 11:58:01]

So Gordon's in the marching camp is he?

My directions for Gordon's march:

1. Out of the door (any door)
2. Turn Left (seems appropriate)
3. Keep Going
4. Keep Going
5. Keep Going
6. Reach the Sea
7. Keep Going into the Sea
8. Keep Going

Harsh? Well his directions led us into a Sea of debt...

[mr happy up north 19 May 2008 11:54:23]

david cameron does indeed speak convincingly. so did the yorkshire ripper when he was interviewed 9 times by the police.
mr cameron can do the talking but can he do the walking? that is the million pound question.
has he now had a sneak peek at the accounts for uk plc?

i seem to remember a speech where he was asked about substance and he replied that he couldn't make promises until he saw the finances, except to say that he would stick to labour expenditure for three years if he suceeds in becoming pm.

i suspect that mr cameron may well have a problem saying he will share the proceeds of growth if there isn't any growth due to global turbulence.
he will be under extreme pressure to make big tax cuts asap. however, he has been helped greatly in this department by mr brown's reduction of the 22p down to 20p tax band.
who would have thought it; a labour pm investing in first world health and education system and giving tax cuts!

there is no need for a tory government, mr brown has done everything already that the tories have planned, according to mr cameron.

why, then, should we vote for him?

[mr happy up north 19 May 2008 11:26:03]

cameron, the smooth talker is cicero - a very interesting comparison which will not be lost on boris johnson, i suspect.

[Victor, NW Kent 19 May 2008 11:09:58]

David Cameron spoke well and convincingly this morning on the reforms that are necessary.

I was not one of his fans two years ago but he impresses me more and more as time goes by.

He has correctly and firmly identified that taxes cannot be cut at the expense of public services. He has pointed out that a large amount of money is expended each year on matters that offer no public benefit whatsoever. Tackling that waste will firstly allow tax money to be used more efficiently and will eventually produce cuts, particularly in stealth taxation.

I am still very worried that when he takes over from the Rev. Brown that he will find reality to be very much worse than he anticipates, as Boris is finding out at City Hall.

Two of my friends who work in London have commented that the number of visible police on the streets seems to have doubled since Boris took office. It seems that he is already keeping his promises.

[crown 19 May 2008 10:59:21]

When Gordon speaks people sleep.

[Elizabeth Davies Cape Town 19 May 2008 10:47:56]

Is it possible the "marching" PM could march out of Downing Street and take his Labour troops with him.

[E Welshman 19 May 2008 10:34:42]

And when Bottler spoke, the response was "We want an election."

[Merv. Beszant, Dubai 19 May 2008 10:20:26]

Joey,
Well the sooner he marches, the better, and if he does this in the same way that he leads the country, then everybody else will be out of step!

[Khalid 19 May 2008 10:10:58]

Just as well wee off to see [The Wizard Of Oz]

[Trevor 19 May 2008 10:05:35]

Well, that confirms it.
We have a pseudo-intellectual with a History degree running the country, God help us !

Meanwhile Cameron has pledged to reduce the bureaucracy waste and profligacy of this government as the obvious route to reducing taxes without cutting public services.
Excellent! THAT is what we want to hear - and end to big meddlesome "regulating and controlling" government.